Origins : Overcoming Negative Thoughts

Frank: 0:45

The cinnamon tea. Oh, that cinnamon tea is fire. It's like real good. Wow, that's really good. It's one of my favorite ones and I don't buy it myself because it's real expensive. But I do drink it here. It's quite good. And because it's real expensive, I don't think they buy it regularly, because when I run it out, when I run it out, they don't refill it for months sometimes.

Jake: 1:08

Oh wow. What brand is it? Could you be a brand advocate for this?

Frank: 1:16

It's a 10 can.

Noah: 1:18

It's Harne and Zuns.

Frank: 1:19

There, you go.

Jake: 1:20

Hmm, that sounds pretty.

Frank: 1:22

It's real fancy.

Noah: 1:23

Master tea blenders.

Frank: 1:27

All right. So today, on the Unbecoming Gladibus podcast, we're gonna talk about negative thinking and how it can have a significant impact on mental health and well-being. Can worsen anxiety and depression, affect relationships, cause low self-esteem, make it harder to cope with daily life. Chronic stress, elevated at the levels of anxiety caused by negative thinking, can also wear down the immune and other bodily systems, leading to health issues such as hypertension, persistent infections, digestive illnesses and cardiovascular disease. Rumination, which involves repetitive thinking or dwelling on negative feelings and distress, can contribute to the development of depression, anxiety and worsen existing conditions.

Jake: 2:09

So the other day we were hanging out a few adults at a table and then my son, thatcher and Thatcher just turned seven and he's been playing a lot of games at the Big Boy table and really enjoying it and he's doing a great job at it. It's really cool to watch. We were playing a game of Exploding Kittens, which is pretty cool. That's a game in which these insidious kittens are trying to they're kind of kamikaze, honestly they're trying to set off bombs and kill you. We were getting close to the end of the game and there were three cards left in the deck and there were three Exploding Kittens. So this deck was stacked and somebody was about to lose. I was playing right before Thatcher and I played an attack card, which meant that he had to go twice.

Jake: 2:55

And you might say that's kind of a mean thing to do to your seven-year-old son, and it is. But you know he was in great spirits. And then all of a sudden he saw me play that card and every negative thought entered his mind. Like you could tell he was like I'm done for this is over. I mean, I think in a way like he was contemplating his own mortality. He's like I have to choose to push this button to lift this card up and accept my own demise. And he broke down.

Jake: 3:25

I mean completely Like it's what you would expect. He started crying and he couldn't think straight. And you know, I gave him a hug, I let him calm down for a minute and I said hey, buddy, let's consider our options. Let's look at your cards together. So we looked at the cards in his hand and he had what's called a nope card, where essentially he could undo the card that another player just played, and he played it and then within three turns, he had done some really strategic stuff to win the game. And afterwards we had this conversation and I said so.

Jake: 4:04

You saw something bad happen and you had some thoughts where you believed that everything was going to go wrong and you couldn't think straight enough to get yourself out of that situation. Essentially, you were living the negative experience that hadn't even happened yet. What do you think we're going to do next time? And he was like I think I'm going to look at all my options and not you know he didn't use these words, but I'm not going to believe that something's happening that isn't. And I thought that was this really great picture of what we do as humans on a regular basis, which is live a negative experience before it's even happened, or maybe one that is not even going to happen. Definitely, that's what I think of when I think of negative thoughts.

Frank: 4:51

Yeah, someone famous said something about this.

Jake: 4:53

Oh yeah.

Noah: 4:54

Steve Jobs in a commencement speech.

Frank: 4:57

No, I think Mark Twain, james Clear Mark Twain.

Noah: 5:01

Oh yeah, it's a good Mark Twain quote. No, it really is. So many negative things have happened in my life, a few of which actually happened something like that, oh yeah.

Frank: 5:13

I've suffered a great many catastrophes in my life. Most of them never happened.

Jake: 5:17

Nice. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard it differently. I heard it more like what you said. No, but I guess this is the official one. From what makes it a.

Frank: 5:27

Foodshelvescom.

Jake: 5:30

Oh, it's probably what he actually wrote.

Frank: 5:33

Right, I think that's what it is. Anyways, I think we should always introduce quotes like this, just how we did that one because what?

Noah: 5:45

Most quotes are either Steve Jobs out of commencement speech or David Foster Wallace out of commencement speech.

Jake: 5:55

One of those two or Jim Carrey out of commencement speech. Jim Carrey out of commencement speech. I will actually agree. I think that Not agree with you. I agree with the thought in my head.

Frank: 6:13

Jake's becoming more mindful. I've never seen you be more insightful than that moment.

Jake: 6:20

That was it right there.

Frank: 6:21

Please double down on this.

Jake: 6:25

If you ever wondered what Nirvana sounds like, it was that. No, I think that throughout my life, Mark Twain is the most quotable person. You hear more quotes from Mark Twain than anyone else Potentially Oscar Wilde. Oscar Wilde was very quotable.

Frank: 6:43

That's what you agree with. I think that's the thought he had.

Jake: 6:47

I didn't agree with this.

Frank: 6:50

When I think of.

Jake: 6:53

Here's a quote. Mark Twain probably said it.

Frank: 6:58

There's a different version of it that might be the one you liked. Worrying is like paying a debt you don't owe. I've spent most of my life worrying about things that never happened.

Noah: 7:10

That's the one that I've heard. I didn't hear the debt part, but people cherry-picked the last piece about worrying about things that didn't happen.

Jake: 7:23

I like that a lot.

Noah: 7:27

I do too. What's the ant framework? That's all I've been thinking about this whole time.

Jake: 7:32

I'm not sure, but I did ask that, you see ants believe in themselves and they never have a negative thought.

Frank: 7:40

That seems true observationally, ants can move. I've never seen an ant crying, they're just working.

Jake: 7:46

Yeah, they can move something like 150 times their body weight or something. Oops, there goes another rubber tree.

Frank: 7:53

All right, the ant model is like an ant.

Noah: 8:00

Do you agree with that thought in your head?

Jake: 8:02

I do actually.

Frank: 8:04

Yeah, that was it. It says. The ant model, in the context of psychology, stands for automatic negative thoughts. Is it? Cognitive therapy? Concept that involves identifying and addressing patterns of negative thinking, helps individuals recognize and challenge their automatic negative thoughts by examining the evidence for and against them, replacing them with more realistic and balanced thoughts. It's often used to treat conditions such as depression and anxiety.

Noah: 8:32

You know what you're agreeing with. Your own thought reminded me of is Joey in the live from Lincoln Theater. Oh yeah, the milk carton kids show where. He's like yeah, yeah, we can get pizza. And and he's like nobody said anything about getting pizza. He like answered some.

Jake: 8:58

Yeah, something that didn't happen. I like that, yeah. So I heard this interview with with Jordan Peterson the other day and I thought something he said was was really interesting. I think the interviewer asked him this question about ongoing cynicism and I don't know, I feel like cynicism and negative thoughts aren't quite the same thing. When I think negative thoughts, I think something a little bit more automatic and like sort of a disposition psychologically, and cynicism is almost logically informed. But I do think that there's a lesson in here. And so the interviewer asked like what do you think the prevalence of cynicism is due to?

Jake: 9:53

And he said well, it's because cynicism is the beginning of wisdom. A lot of people start out with a certain degree of innocent naivety and when they actually encounter the world and reality and it starts to hurt them, they realize that the naivety was a fantasy of sorts. So, in order to stop themselves from getting hurt, they start to become cynical about what's being presented to them it's not just all best case scenario and they realize, oh, this is a good thing, it helps me from getting hurt. He said the problem is when you stop there. When you stop there and you just start to believe that everything is going to go wrong every single time. And he said I think the cure for this is to become cynical about your cynicism.

Jake: 10:42

Just take it one more step further and say if I believe that this is going to go wrong, in what ways is that an irrational thought? And that reminded me of what you were saying with the ant method.

Frank: 10:54

Yeah yeah, I don't know what the ant method really is. I know what I've used. There's a series of questions that I have sort of asked myself, and there's also the work of Byron Katie, which is something I've shared with a lot of people that they really do well with because of how frequently we project. But all of these are defense mechanisms. Any automatic negative thought you have, I really think, is just a defense mechanism. It's something you did once that worked for that scenario and now you just keep repeating it. And out of the work of Byron Katie is legit, I think so. I agree.

Frank: 11:36

The questions are like in this situation, who angers, confuses, hurts, saddens or disappoints you, and why? And you just say I am emotion with name, because reason I'm angry with Paul because he lied to me. And then the next question is in this situation, how do you want him or her to change? What do you want him or her to do? And then the answer is like I want Paul to see that he is wrong. I want him to stop lying to me.

Frank: 12:03

Next question is in this situation, what advice would you offer him or her? And then you answer that Paul shouldn't frighten me with his behavior. He should take a deep breath and then, in order for you to be happy in this situation, what do you need him or her to think, say, feel or do? Answer that I need Paul to stop talking over me, I need him to really listen to me. And then five what do you think of him or her in this situation? Make a list. It's okay to be petty and judgmental, and this is like the thing you talked about on the last podcast, the what's the worst. This is a direct map to that. When you're petty and judgmental about what you think someone else did to you, that's really coming from you, direct information about yourself?

Frank: 12:52

Yes, it is. So the answer to that is like Paul is a liar, arrogant, loud, dishonest and unconscious. And then the next question is what is it about this person's situation you don't ever want to experience again? Just answer that I don't ever want Paul to lie to me again. I don't ever want to be disrespected again. And then for each of those you take them as a separate idea and you ask four questions about them. So you go to the first thing and you say I'm angry with Paul because he lied to me. And then you say is that true? You just answer yes or no. If no, you go to question three. If yes, then you say can you absolutely know that it's true? And yes or no to that? Then you answer question three how do you react? What happens when you believe that thought? And then, who or what would you be without the thought? And then there's also another little exercise If you do all of these for a scenario, the scenario meaning totally changes.

Jake: 13:59

It's impossible to hold on to it.

Frank: 14:01

Yeah, so you switch. I lied to me, I lied to Paul. Paul didn't lie to me. Paul told me the truth and as you visualize the situation, you contemplate how each turnaround is as true or truer, and then you come out of it with a different understanding of what happened. Oftentimes and you may not you may have been lied to and it was very wrong and Paul shouldn't have done that, but you have certainty about that. Instead of, it was just a negative thought, that's. I love this. I don't know if this is aunt, but if I were going to, if someone were like, hey, how should I deal with a negative thought? I would take him to this sheet.

Jake: 14:40

Yeah, it's a truly, truly beautiful framework and it really does work so well. It just like diffuses any incendiary device in your head. And what's really cool is that, regardless, like let's say that you even come to the conclusion that Paul really did lie to you, you have already asked yourself who or what would I be without that belief. You've already sort of embodied that, if even only hypothetically, and that right there is, like, this pathway to freedom. It's like, yeah, paul lied to me. Paul needs to like really apologize and guess what? I don't have to exist in this state of suffering until he does. I get to be free right now.

Frank: 15:28

Yeah, or that I mean this interstate on this page has so many exits. It's insane. You might also just realize that Paul lied to me and he's human and it's okay. I'm okay with that.

Jake: 15:46

Paul lied and this doesn't hurt you anymore.

Frank: 15:49

Yeah, you know there's, or the problem might be that you lied to yourself and you knew Paul was a liar a long time ago and you chose to stay in the relationship with him. And now he lied to you. Who should you be mad at, paul?

Jake: 16:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I have this tendency to think about things conceptually far more than literally. Something like the work. I love the idea and never actually employ it from a question to question standpoint. There is this thing in me that is driven very intuitively, instinctively, and I have found recently that when I start having negative thoughts, the first thing I ask myself is how is this about me? Where's the seed? What am I afraid of? What am I projecting or planning for, or anything like that? And then I had this moment last night. Actually, I was having an argument in my head with somebody else. It was ridiculous, but it's something that happens and I asked myself wait a second, where's the root of this? What am I preparing for? And I found it. And then I started to totally reverse the whole thing and it just dissolved. It was all apart. It was crazy.

Frank: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, mine. Like I don't do the work worksheets very often myself, but it is an area that I reference a lot, because one thing people say to me frequently is like how does it not bother you that that person did that to you? I'm just like I don't think of it as that they didn't do that to me and like how could you even believe that? Like I saw it and I think they did this and I'm like I don't know, try this worksheet. And they're like oh yeah, yeah, it's gonna be, different, but I have done it before.

Frank: 17:50

No-transcript, but I just usually like if if I have it's usually redundancy that causes me to investigate a thought Like this sort of thing keeps happening. This thought is on repeat or something, and I'm like, why Is that true? And then I research it. It's usually not that I'm upset with someone else, but I think that is a unlock for a lot of people that gets them there.

Jake: 18:24

What, what's comes to your mind? No, when you think of negative thoughts, like I feel, as though you know I gave this example of Thatcher and like worst case scenario type of thought Frank gave this example of imagining that somebody else is doing something to you and how the work kind of affects that Are those similar types of ideas? When you think of negative thoughts or do something else pop up.

Noah: 18:50

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out what I think of negative thoughts I don't typically have, so I think the Enneagram comes into play here when considering negative thoughts. It's not that I don't have negative thoughts, but I don't think. Often the negative thoughts are in defense of myself. I think that they're in defense of some injustice, other people sometimes it might be me.

Frank: 19:32

What's like a good example of that.

Noah: 19:41

It's a good man. I don't have a good example off the half of my head. Do you have a bad?

Frank: 19:46

example.

Noah: 19:49

Yeah, I'm trying to make something up Like I maybe just thoughts like oh, that person is trying to take advantage of people. This is a very basic, very broad thought, but my negative thoughts tend to be more like that than something that's pointed towards me. Again, it's not that they're never pointed towards me, but I think I'm more inclined to think negatively when it's in the context of protecting something or someone. Okay, I think this kind of tracks if I think about how each Enneagram number does think negatively, theoretically, I mean like nine's ruminate on negative thoughts. I think ones are known for having that inner critic, so they're very self-critical and without going through every single number, but I think that negativity, the eight is very protective and so I think it tracks.

Frank: 21:04

Do you think so? If you have negative thought like that, do you think there's a value in reframing it? Sure, yeah. The thing that comes to mind for me it may not be good to talk about is Dave Ramsey. What do you like? What thoughts happen for you when you think about Dave Ramsey?

Noah: 21:30

My biggest problem with Dave Ramsey is that he preaches all these different money savings techniques and debt pay off and all of these things, but he's constantly trying to sell his stuff. Feels like there's conflict there. And then there just have been lots of reports about how he treats people, and I think that if that's so, if there's a consistent message there about how he treats people in private, it's probably got some truth to it. Yeah, so I just think that I'm not inclined to trust him.

Frank: 22:20

Do you think there's value in trying to reframe that? Yeah?

Noah: 22:24

Specific to Dave Ramsey. Yeah, not really. I mean, I don't think about Dave Ramsey on a regular basis. So if it was something that was just like running my life, maybe, yeah, but I mean. You understand what I mean.

Frank: 22:40

Yeah, I'm actually trying to get I give zero thought to Dave Ramsey.

Noah: 22:43

So if it was something that was affecting my life regularly, sure it would make sense to try to reframe it or rethink it, but I don't-. Dave Ramsey comes up once every six months or something.

Frank: 22:53

Is there something that was sort of running your life that you have reframed? Negative thought-wise?

Noah: 23:05

Not from not negative like, not regular negative thoughts. The things that were running my life were more belief driven which I suppose we could talk semantics but more things like we talked about in the last podcast. I didn't believe that I could have what I wanted or I could go after what I wanted, but this is more of a belief system rather than like a it wasn't like a constant negative you can't have this or you can't have that. It was just like I believe that what I'm here to do is to help take care of everybody else.

Frank: 23:42

What does that feel like? To believe that, Like you have you just don't have like a strong narrative around it, Like you don't-.

Jake: 23:51

Yeah.

Frank: 23:52

When you get up and have to go to work, you just do it.

Jake: 23:56

You don't have a lot of thought or something about it.

Frank: 23:58

Yeah, okay.

Jake: 24:01

That's very interesting. I like that connecting it back to what we were talking about last time, because there are sort of these different stages of awareness and, almost by necessity, if I have to for instance and I'm not necessarily projecting this on you, noah, but it was just said, like you just said the work thing If, for instance, I have to wake up every single day and go to work at a job that I hate and I don't see a way out. Maybe two years ago I really tried, I did some job searching and nothing just panned out. And so I'm sort of revalidating this idea in my head that I don't have any options, and so I try to this is maybe a seven strategy for dealing with things, but it's like so I try to not focus on that negative thought. I try to pretend like I'm not actually upset about this, even though it's kind of slowly draining the life out of me.

Jake: 25:03

But that belief that's keeping me sort of imprisoned in this place is maybe the most malicious type of negative thought. It's the negative thought that we can't even confirm for ourselves is negative, but really drives a lot of our decisions, behaviors and life choices, and it's like you could ask this question what does it feel like to believe that? And the answer would probably come back. I don't know, it's just life, but it's the one that I can't seem to put words around, or what have you. Is there value, then, in questioning these things, in bringing up from below the pain that I don't want to look at? I mean, my first response would be yeah, there's absolutely value in that You're going to stay in this place until you actually acknowledge how bad it is. It's the region beta paradox, right. Until something is bad enough, you will just sort of remain in it. But once that becomes above threshold and I say this is no longer tenable, will I actually really put myself into and invest myself in changing that scenario?

Frank: 26:26

Yeah, for sure I don't feel like I have a lot of negative thoughts anymore. But it's not true. Just a small evaluation. Just in the last couple of minutes I came up with some, and they're not overtly negative, horrible things. They're just like. I'm in the middle of this huge, complex project. Why did you get yourself into this?

Noah: 26:54

Yeah well, I think there's a real difference between having negative thoughts, which we all do, and then being able to deal with those negative thoughts in a constructive or healthy way. I feel the same way. Obviously, I have negative thoughts, we all have negative thoughts, but I don't dwell on these things, which is why I think I'm struggling to come up with. I certainly have negative thoughts, but I don't let them run me. I also think this can be tied back to the Enneagram. I think the eighth relationship with conflict and conflict resolution plays a big part in this. For me, I just wanna resolve things and be done with it. I think this is true internally too. The things that I get stressed about like truly actually get stressed about are things that I can't resolve, things that linger, and resolution typically requires another party, because if I can resolve it myself, I'm going to. I don't know if that's 100% true, but I think that I probably deal with negative thoughts in the same way. If I can deal with it, I'm gonna deal with it and move on from it.

Jake: 28:09

So what I'm hearing is like your strategy for dealing with negative thoughts is to immediately put it under the proverbial microscope or bring it to the surface and say we're gonna get this out of here.

Frank: 28:20

Yes for me. After just now I was like I don't really do that that much. And then I was like, oh yeah, I came up with some. But because I deal with them so quickly, looking back I can say there are better ways I could have dealt with it. Like, why am I in the middle of this big, complex project? And my default reaction was it doesn't matter, it's gonna be over soon, do it. But it would be much more empowering to everyone involved in the project if I said you're in the middle of this complex project because you are the right person for the job, and then it doesn't suck. So that was a negative thought that I failed to reframe. That could have been better had I done it differently.

Jake: 29:06

That's just it, right? I mean again to go back to this framework, is I really do push this a lot of things through this filter of the finite and the infinite game, and it's like I love that question. Why are you in the middle of this big project? Well, because there's a version of yourself two months ago that wanted it. There's a version of yourself that was languishing in mediocrity and just being like, yeah, I'm getting through, but there's nothing actually challenging me or making me better. I asked for this, I approached it and I said yes to it. Let's trust that guy. Yeah, let's trust that if I didn't have this right now, I would be freaking bored and I'd want something like this.

Frank: 29:47

Let's use it, yeah, yeah, and I kind of do that a little by minimizing it, which is what I did as a defense mechanism.

Frank: 29:53

I'm just like it doesn't matter, you're gonna get it done, just get it done. But it would be better to speak about, like to speak to myself, about why I'm the best person for the job, not to just minimize it. Yeah, I think so, but that's just. I think a lot of people wouldn't even call it a negative thought, but it was, and my response to it was sort of negative and left me going all right, this sucks, but I'll get it done, and I could have been. I am the right person. Let me get this done right now with a smile, like the journey is gonna be enjoyable because of how good I am at this.

Jake: 30:39

Yeah.

Frank: 30:40

Instead of you gotta focus on this crap. I don't want to focus on.

Jake: 30:46

It always comes back to mind. I think I heard Jeff Bezos first put it in in terms that really resonated with me.

Noah: 30:55

Had a commencement speech.

Jake: 30:57

I think it was on Letterman or something actually Like back in 2000,. And it was something like anxiety only exists when you're dealing with a problem that you could be doing something about and you are not doing something about. That is the root of anxiety. And, as an Enneagram 7, anxiety is my most present emotion. It's the one I can experience most easily, and it's so. This is something I think about almost every day. It's like all right, anxiety, what's the thing you can do? And that's why I really liked that strategy. You said no. It was like okay, I'm feeling it, let's figure out what it is and let's deal with it now, so that I'm not thatcher and I'm not experiencing this terrible scenario over and over again in my head trying to figure out how to get out of it, when I might not even have to deal with it to begin with.

Frank: 31:50

Yep.

Noah: 31:53

Yeah.

Frank: 31:55

I've never, ever heard anyone attribute a quote to Jeff Bezos before.

Jake: 31:59

Isn't that weird. I kinda hate it when I hear it.

Frank: 32:01

I don't hate the quote, but I literally don't think of him as a wise person that shares information with others. He's smart, for sure, but I've never heard anyone attribute any shared knowledge from Jeff Bezos ever, I agree.

Jake: 32:17

It's not really something I think of either, but at the same time he accomplished something big via cooperative effort, and that meant a lot of delegation, which meant that he probably had to employ some pretty interesting strategies to make that progressive.

Frank: 32:37

Yeah Well, his main strategy is a question mark email he got I don't know if he's, I mean, he's not even the CEO anymore. I don't think he gets any of this anymore but for a long time he got many emails in his inbox for different departments customer service and people could directly email him and he would forward it to the person responsible with a question mark and send.

Jake: 33:01

Interesting.

Frank: 33:02

That was his main management technique.

Jake: 33:06

Takes a lot of trust For sure.

Frank: 33:10

Like this ain't okay. That's all that question mark meant.

Jake: 33:15

Here's a question and maybe it's already been answered. Maybe it doesn't need an answer, maybe there's no distinction here at all, but we've primarily dealt with negative thoughts that don't really have a basis in reality, and maybe that's the nature of a negative thought, maybe it is entirely a projection. But what do you do in a situation where something really is bad, like something is really really terrible, and, you know, is it just like use that defense mechanism for what it's there for, use it in a healthy way and just get through it? What do we do in those situations?

Noah: 34:06

I quit my job at ADM without another job you did do that.

Frank: 34:10

That's a change in environment. That's one of the techniques.

Noah: 34:17

And you could. I didn't think things were going to change and you could call that a negative thought if you want, but I think it was a. I think it was true.

Frank: 34:27

Yeah.

Noah: 34:27

And I finally said I'm going to leave.

Frank: 34:29

Definitely was true. You did the right thing, for sure.

Jake: 34:33

One of my earliest memories of meeting you, noah, was Emily. You guys were having this conversation about optimists, pessimists, and optimists and pessimists. Then she said, noah, you're so pessimistic. He said, no, I'm a realist. And this was a defining building block of who Noah was in my mind when I first met you. Pessimism, no, let's just realize this. Realistic.

Noah: 34:56

Yeah, I honestly don't and never have thought of myself as a negative person, but I also just don't enjoy the. I don't enjoy fluff. So, yeah, I you know people who are more I don't know what the term would be, I guess more prone to like fluffy optimism sort of stuff which I'm not even saying is a bad thing, but feel like it's negativity If I say, oh, this is, if I, this situation is never going to change, I'm leaving. A more optimistic person might be like come on, this is your job, this is how you make money. Mm, hmm, you've been here for seven years. You know there's other departments within this company you could find a job in whatever that sounds more like a delusional person to me, but right, but I'm not attacking what you're saying, I'm just like I think optimism would be like closer to.

Frank: 35:56

I am leaving this company and there are good reasons why and there are better things in my future. Like that feels more optimistic.

Jake: 36:03

Sure.

Frank: 36:05

And I'm not saying that way. He said it's wrong. I'm saying like I think many people do the delusional route. That's why I thought yeah.

Noah: 36:11

Yeah, yeah. So I actually think I'm a pretty optimistic person. I just think that I'm okay with acknowledging things that I think are true. Yeah, and that feels negative to a lot of people.

Jake: 36:24

Well, the way I view it, what you said is you jumped off a cliff, you prepared first, you gave yourself a paraglider, and you jumped off that cliff and you were optimistic, saying this paraglider is going to open and it's going to work well and I'm going to feel what it's like to fly and there's something better on the horizon. Yeah, if you can believe that you can change your environment. Yeah.

Frank: 36:45

Well, self-compassion helps. I mean, like I don't know, I think that's there's like woo-woo affirmations, sure, and then there's just like a sort of realistic self-compassion and positive self-talk.

Jake: 36:59

Yeah, yeah, it starts with power poses, I think.

Noah: 37:02

I think the woo-woo side. Yeah Well, I think that the optimistic, pessimistic sort of thing also ties back to conversations we've had before between, like a difference between myself and you, for instance, which would be you don't make decisions or you don't.

Noah: 37:27

well, I've given you a hard time about not making decisions, like, not actually like you all, there's always you know two sides of every coin, sort of thought process, and I go, I just this is what I think and this is what I want. And I say that and that feels, I think to some people I'm not saying you, but I think to some people that feels pessimistic because I'm like no, this is, this is how I see it, this is what I want, this is the thing I'm doing.

Noah: 37:53

And they're like oh, you didn't even give the other side a chance, which is not true, Sure, but I think it's similar, I think it's in the same realm the reason that I feel maybe more pessimistic to people when I'm not actually pessimistic. I just kind of know what it is that I I'm willing to say the thing that I think, like I'm willing to make a decision about what I think.

Jake: 38:18

Yeah, and sometimes it comes across as worst case scenario and it's like no, it really is that bad. Yeah, and early is a terrible person.

Noah: 38:25

Early podcasts, that we've had very early podcasts, frank. Would be like you're shutting this conversation down and I'm like no, I'm not shutting this conversation, I'm just telling you how I feel about this thing yeah. And you're in. I totally get why. Maybe it felt like I was shutting it down, but I wasn't. I was just saying no, this is what I think.

Frank: 38:44

I think Jake said this just, but I did agree with it. But I think the attribution, what is it? The providence?

Noah: 38:52

It's on recording Prevenience. I feel back and listen.

Frank: 38:55

The prevenience is important here for no good reason.

Noah: 39:01

Well, we could go back and listen to it.

Frank: 39:03

Yeah, I mean, I think there was one that you shut down.

Jake: 39:05

I was interested in environment change, so I said something. That's what I'm hearing, yeah.

Noah: 39:11

But I'm really not trying to start an argument. I think this is interesting. You say I think there is one you did shut down and I know it's you feel like it shut down because you shut it down. You're very pessimistic next week on unbecoming platypus.

Jake: 39:28

We'll talk more about slack and whether or not it's a social media.

Frank: 39:35

Yeah, physical activities and other good one that can help you overcome Some real negative thoughts, if they're, if they've been investigated and seem to be real mm-hmm physical okay.

Jake: 39:49

So like when I hear that my brain goes yeah in in my pursuits of physical activity, I exercise, I watch myself do things that feel impossible and Like this creates a history of I didn't believe it was gonna work out and it did. I use that all the time in negative thinking. It's like feels impossible.

Noah: 40:10

Yeah or or. From the mindfulness aspect, I mean, exercise is mindful. Definitely for sure yeah in that you're not thinking about anything other than I mean, if you're in a tough workout, you're thinking about that and only that, mm-hmm, and maybe you're not even thinking about that, maybe you're trying to just think of nothing to get through it. But I think there's also obviously physiological. I mean, even just the fact that you can Get rid of extra cortisol during a workout, yeah, is probably helpful in this aspect.

Frank: 40:47

Definitely yeah. And the other one we didn't talk about, but it is important to mention, I think, is distracting activities, and this is, hmm, these are like best in and dbt and CBT, like for truly distressing, like Horrible. Yeah it's, if I deal with this right now, I will leave the planet. Yeah, you should go color coloring book or something like. Literally go do something else and you can come back to this thought, with help or with, you know, a better set of circumstances.

Jake: 41:20

But I Completely agree. Like those last two, physical activity and the distracting activities, like those, to me, both feel like Well, it's that concept of sublimation. It's like taking something that could be negative and redirecting it. These could be avoidance mechanisms or they could be very strategically employed in a way that allows you to not look at it whenever you don't need to yeah and to look at it when you do. Earlier, when I said Sometimes bringing the stuff up out of the muck and really looking at how negative it is in order to feel that and cause Motivation to change, I was thinking I do this very strategically. It's almost always in the summertime. I almost always create life changes in the summer and this is not Rationally intentional. It's when I have the most energy, it's when I feel less bogged down by, you know, holidays and and other stresses and other obligations, and I actually have the space to deal with and and progress out of certain situations. So, yeah, I love that idea if done intentionally.

Frank: 42:30

Yeah, yeah, so and I mean distraction works like for sure. I've seen I Got pretty good at it with like psych patients in the ambulance actually. Yeah, that's it like and I mean I read the book verbal judo back then which is like all about what that is, but I would even use humor like any. I just read the situation. But I remember one time downtown Charleston this like 19 year old college girl, super drunk, long mental illness history, and she had fought the police, she had injured the police, she had broken the window out of a police cruiser Good, great.

Frank: 43:16

They were dragging her across the concrete towards my ambulance and I was like hang on a second. And I just like, bent down, told her a joke. She laughed, she got up and walked to the ambulance with me. Yeah, and yeah, then we talked on the way to the hospital. I didn't have any sort of problem like the one they were having. Yeah, because I distracted her from the idea that she was about to go to jail, which she still was after the hospital.

Jake: 43:40

But Well, it's. Yeah, I had a similar experience. It was on the plane back from Puerto Rico. There was this guy who was sitting next to me, and the long story in itself. But essentially he started breathing very differently and I've seen people have panic attacks. I was pretty sure that's what was going on and all I did was just start asking him about his life. Hey, where you from? What do you do? You know, you were in Puerto Rico, what'd you do there? And you know, a few minutes later, everything kind of calmed down and he was like wow, this has been great, you know. And I was like yeah, you know, you seemed like you were having a panic attack. He's like yeah, I was feeling like I was gonna puke and I couldn't breathe right.

Jake: 44:17

It's like yeah, that's what that feels like but but yeah, that sort of idea of just like, okay, let's distract something else.

Frank: 44:25

Yeah, there are tons of like. I mean, if this is something that feels like it would help you, then DBT has tons of distress tolerance skills that are Like worth looking into, and obviously mental health professionals are good guides for using those tools, but they're out there, even if you want to try them on your own.

Noah: 44:43

I also think that you are obviously your belief system matters, but the belief that you can't change your situation and I think this ties back into that self-worth piece, too that I keep bringing up I think there's a direct correlation to your belief in how you can deal with it, or that you deserve better, or whatever Perpetuates these negative thoughts or or stops them. And like a very, very basic example of this Like if you feel like you can change the situation, you may have a negative thought about it, but you, if you feel like you can change it, you're probably gonna stop that thought pretty quickly or you're gonna change your environment or situation to Just to make it different.

Noah: 45:27

Yeah and like, if you consider getting a flat tire, that's always frustrating. If you have a spare, it's probably a lot less frustrating than if you do not have a spare. And so these situations are different because you have a way to change it, to get out of it, to respond to it.

Jake: 45:47

And when you feel hopeless Because your belief system tells you that nothing can change and you're not in control, then you're very much more prone to negative thoughts and not finding the way out Like that was the whole thing with thatcher is hey, you've got your get out of jail free card in your hand, but you're so busy looking at the negative thing he thinks gonna happen. You can't, you don't have the mental bandwidth to look at it.

Frank: 46:13

Yeah, and I think it's interesting.

Jake: 46:15

Like you know you, you often say no, like we're always having the same conversation. It's the same conversation over and over, and I think it's because these things Are so interconnected. You know, the idea of self-compassion Goes along with strategies to overcome negative thoughts, and we have developed these things Sort of in tandem with each other and and I don't know that it's easy to just say it's sort of the the 20 carbs idea. Hey, eat fewer than 20 carbs per day, you're going to lose weight, right? True, yes, hey, just change your environment and you will overcome negative thoughts. True, yes, but Take these things together.

Jake: 46:59

You know, this whole thing is a path Toward uncovering, unveiling, unwrapping the gift of who you are. Yeah and um, it's a. It's a big adventure and it's a lot of fun, yeah and everyone's different.

Frank: 47:14

One thing tro says a lot in his group coaching sessions is about Getting a flat tire. Actually, oh yeah, he's like when you get a flat tire, you know what to do. You pull over, you change the tire or you call AAA. And this is the same thing when you are eating off plan, just call us, we'll help you get back on the road. But you don't drive around with a flat tire. So, yeah, and I don't know, you shouldn't. I don't, maybe calling tro isn't right for you, but it does apply to any problem. Yeah, if you keep having these negative thoughts, find help, don't drive around with them. Right, you don't have to. Yeah, that's a good place to stop.

Jake: 48:00

I think I'm driving on a flat tire. Guys, you don't have to you don't have to.

Frank: 48:03

I think I'm driving on a flat tire, guys.

Jake: 48:05

You don't have to, you don't have to get help.

Frank: 48:07

There's professional help, there's better help Sponsored by. We hope to be soon.

Jake: 48:17

Thanks guys.