Ever found yourself chuckling over a serendipitous discovery on social media, only to tumble into a rabbit hole of surprising self-discovery? Our latest episode takes you on such a journey, blending humor with the profound as we navigate the complex world of human interaction and personal growth. From the unexpected philosophical depths of low-carb cinnamon rolls to the sobering realities of gaslighting and the nuances of truth versus honesty, we unpack stories that will have you nodding along and pondering long after the conversation ends.
With the help of our dynamic guests, we peel back layers of the self-improvement process, examining how we often use others as reflective surfaces to gain insight into our own behavior. The episode is peppered with laughter-inducing exchanges and candid moments of vulnerability that reveal the uncomfortable yet essential growth that comes from confronting our toxic traits. Whether through a rapid-fire round of feedback or a deep discussion on the solitary vs. communal nature of reflection, we shine a light on the transformative power of seeing ourselves through another's eyes.
To cap it off, our dialogue ventures into the heart of relationship dynamics—communication. Sharing anecdotes and dissecting emotional triggers, we underscore the importance of clear expression and the courage it takes to assert our feelings. This isn't just talk; it's a toolkit for navigating the emotional landscapes we all traverse. Join us for an episode that is as enlightening as it is entertaining, ensuring you walk away with a fresh perspective on the art of honest conversation and the intricate dance of interpersonal relationships.
Ever found yourself chuckling over a serendipitous discovery on social media, only to tumble into a rabbit hole of surprising self-discovery? Our latest episode takes you on such a journey, blending humor with the profound as we navigate the complex world of human interaction and personal growth. From the unexpected philosophical depths of low-carb cinnamon rolls to the sobering realities of gaslighting and the nuances of truth versus honesty, we unpack stories that will have you nodding along and pondering long after the conversation ends.
With the help of our dynamic guests, we peel back layers of the self-improvement process, examining how we often use others as reflective surfaces to gain insight into our own behavior. The episode is peppered with laughter-inducing exchanges and candid moments of vulnerability that reveal the uncomfortable yet essential growth that comes from confronting our toxic traits. Whether through a rapid-fire round of feedback or a deep discussion on the solitary vs. communal nature of reflection, we shine a light on the transformative power of seeing ourselves through another's eyes.
To cap it off, our dialogue ventures into the heart of relationship dynamics—communication. Sharing anecdotes and dissecting emotional triggers, we underscore the importance of clear expression and the courage it takes to assert our feelings. This isn't just talk; it's a toolkit for navigating the emotional landscapes we all traverse. Join us for an episode that is as enlightening as it is entertaining, ensuring you walk away with a fresh perspective on the art of honest conversation and the intricate dance of interpersonal relationships.
Man, I opened Instagram and this is the thing that showed up Naked woman.
Frank:That's evil, that's Satan. There is evil in the world, after all, in the form of a cinnamon roll Cinnamon rolls. I did recently create a recipe that nearly mimics all the qualities of a cinnamon roll at around 3 grams total carbohydrates.
Jake:What was your rubric for you know what's the word adjudicating this cinnamon roll. Was it texture, mouthfeel, yep Flavor? Obviously yeah.
Frank:Cinnamonous.
Jake:Ah, yes, on the cinnamonous scale, please say it's cinnamon-y.
Frank:Yeah, it's cinnamon-y-minim-y.
Jake:Yeah well, that's a very technical jargon term that most people don't know.
Frank:So it's cinnamonous. Yeah, I guess yeah.
Noah:I'm just happy that it came out correctly the first time I tried it.
Jake:You see, cinnamon-y-minim-y, cinnamon-ness and synonymity are synonyms.
Frank:I think we forgot to do this segment on the last spot, where we choose up to five words that are in no way related and pretend like they are.
Jake:I like it. I like it a lot. It tells us a little bit something about ourselves.
Frank:Yeah, what does it tell us?
Jake:Minotaur.
Frank:I like that movie. Yeah, it's pretty good.
Jake:I think I saw a clip from it the other day. Back in my day I had cocaine for breakfast, dinner, yeah, and for lunch, you know what? I had Coke.
Frank:Yeah, Noah will be with us shortly. He's probably texting his girlfriend on her internet connection.
Noah:Yeah, she texted me and told me that I hate her Because I haven't said anything to her yet today. And I said obviously.
Jake:I've been texting you all morning. I guess it just didn't come through. You're in your.
Frank:That's terrible Speaking of that. We're going to talk about that today. We're going to talk about honesty in relationships and reflection oh, I thought. I thought about that today we always talk about that we always talk about bad internet, so I'm sure that'll make it too.
Jake:Yeah, wonderful, yeah, I was just giving you an example of what's not a great idea to do. Which is gaslight your girlfriend. What are you talking about?
Frank:Do you think it's a good idea or not, though, to gaslight your girlfriend and think about your evil parts.
Jake:I don't think it's a good idea. Why See what I did there. I think it's an evil idea. That was obviously in me, or it wouldn't have come out. It came from somewhere.
Frank:What was? Where did it come from? That's what I mean.
Jake:No, where did it come from? Same place as Cotton Eye Joe? Has it ever worked? Not saying Cotton Eye Joe after someone asked where did it come from? No, no, that is invariably where it leads. Has gaslighting ever worked? Oh, I don't know, I don't. It's terrible.
Frank:That is not what I meant.
Jake:Well, I mean. What do you mean?
Frank:by worked, created the thought that you wanted when you did it.
Jake:I mean, it might have created the result that I thought I wanted, but at the same time, I don't know that I've ever gaslit while knowing that's what I was doing.
Noah:You should try it out I try it right now Just as an example.
Jake:I've been doing it this whole time, Frank.
Noah:I gotta say this Harnian Sun Cinnamon Tea is amazing. The cinnamonity is off the charts.
Jake:It's off the charts. It's off the charts. We're not sponsored by Harnian Suns, but Yet.
Frank:We hope to.
Noah:I have to be honest.
Frank:If there was a sponsor that was right for us, it's you guys, so give me a call If.
Noah:I Harnie His phone number is.
Frank:Hit your suns. It's 618-800-8324.
Noah:If I talk about Harnian Suns and the cinnamonity Cinnamonity, cinnamonity, cinnamonity, cinnamonity.
Jake:Cinnamonity.
Noah:Of this tea enough. They will be our sponsors, I know it.
Frank:Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, so you have gaslit. Just you were gaslighting yourself at the same time 100%. Did either of the gaslightings work while you were simultaneously gaslighting?
Jake:They both worked in that they led us both to believe that the conclusion I was stating was correct. It had short-term results toward the intended end yeah and ultimately resulted in absolute destruction.
Frank:All right Good. So how do you avoid gaslighting yourself while gaslighting others? Now?
Noah:Are we talking? Is this podcast about gaslighting? Yes, y'all alone.
Jake:Just follow along.
Frank:This podcast I'll just say it for the record because I know sometimes you zone out when I say it it's discussed the importance of honesty and relationships and personal growth, and share strategies for incorporating those around us as mirrors in our daily life.
Noah:So naturally we started about Jake gaslighting.
Frank:So I don't even know who said gaslighting or how we got here.
Jake:Uncertain in every way. Oh, amy, you're supposed to tell her that.
Frank:Oh, you were gaslighting, Amy Well that's right.
Noah:No, Jake wanted me to say gaslighting.
Jake:I didn't want to, I suggested it. You see the difference here.
Frank:Oh, you gaslighted yourself into wanting to know what a gaslight.
Jake:I never wanted it. Yes, you did. Uh-uh, you did. I suggested it, you wanted it, I suggested it. Okay, maybe I wanted it. I don't know what to believe in it.
Frank:In any case, you'll get there. Stage 4 is better than stage 2 and 3.
Jake:Stage 4 gaslighting. Is that where you gaslight an entire country? No, that seems way higher. Stage 11, bro, it takes a lot of intentional effort. Anyway, I think that you know, through processes of self-reflection we can start to realize the ways that we might be saying things that are untrue.
Frank:That's right.
Jake:I don't know of a way to weave this in properly, but I think that the distinction between truth and honesty is a very interesting thing. I have found myself to be honestly telling lies at different times in my life. Yeah, I think my distinction is simply that I believe that what I'm saying is true and then I later find out that it was absolutely not.
Frank:Yeah, my definition of lie is intent to deceive. Sure, it comes to the bonus that if you are truly not intending to deceive, you ought to correct the record as soon as you find out. Sure, with these two powers combined, it's almost Captain Planet of honesty.
Jake:I think that honesty was one of the Captain Planet powers. Man.
Frank:Oh really.
Jake:Yeah, wow, that shows me the whole hierarchy. This was a whole pyramid scheme. There's all the powers of honesty, and then honesty is a power that makes Captain Planet.
Frank:What if our podcast was this Just, whatever it is, it is Loosest association possible with a word.
Jake:You just throw it in there Pyramid scheme Makes me think of Thomas the Tank Engine. Wasn't there a character named Schemer in this?
Frank:I don't think so. Schemer Noah Typing Schemer. How's Amy doing?
Noah:She's good.
Frank:Schemer.
Jake:Schemer, that's going to be S-C-H.
Frank:Do you want a phone or friend? We should really get the phone lines open, this bad guy.
Noah:A person who is involved in making secret or underhanded plans.
Jake:Oh yeah, no, no, space Thomas, the Tank Engine.
Noah:Well, the first auto suggestion is Schemer Thomas, the train that's it.
Jake:I mean it has to be it.
Noah:That can be Thomas the Tank Engine, but I just wanted to make it clear the first. The first suggestion was the train.
Jake:Yeah well, if this is actually a thing that exists.
Noah:Horace Schemer, also known as Schemer, is the owner of the arcade at Shining Time Station.
Jake:Horace.
Frank:This I didn't even know. There was an arcade at.
Noah:Shining Time.
Frank:Station Okay.
Noah:Do we know what Shining Time Station is?
Frank:I think it's the station.
Noah:It doesn't look like it Shining Time Station. It looks like a live action old show.
Jake:Hold on a second. I'm pulling some real deep repressed memories right now Was George Carlin in Thomas the Tank Engine.
Noah:Hold on. Schemer lives up to his surname by creating awkward and outlandish schemes, which always seems to fail. Which always seems to fail. In addition to his interesting wardrobe taste, schemer loves to collect nickels oh man, this is Thanks, dad Especially from passengers who deposit them into the arcade machines. Other interests include a sizeable comb collection. Schemer lives at home with his mother and is known to have at least one sibling, who lives out of town, who is the parent of his nephew, scheme.
Jake:Are you on the Thomas, the Tank Engine wiki?
Noah:I am Thomas Schemer. Horace Schemer is the spitting image of his grandfather, jebediah Schemer. Yeah, he is and is fiercely proud of one prominent trait of the Schemer bloodline the telltale curl on the side of his head. A follower of his own Schemer system of success, which often, if not always, lands him into trouble, schemer does occasionally reveal the caring side of personality of his friends. Schemer's clumsiness sometimes sends him tumbling to land flat on his face, though he manages to do so without any serious injury to himself.
Frank:Whatcha got for me. Frank Karlin narrated the third and fourth seasons of Thomas, the Tank Engine and Friends. He's the voice of all the people.
Noah:All. I have never watched Thomas the Tank Engine, ever once in my life.
Jake:I'm sure I have, and I'm sure it's been 30 years ago. Well, you know about George Karlin, so, yeah, I mean this could have been picked up later, but Thomas for sure he was the first-.
Frank:George Karlin was the first official American Thomas narrator after Ringo Star left Shining Time Station first.
Jake:Ringo Star.
Frank:Music career. This is likely the reason why, on most home media releases, episodes from the first two series were narrated by George Karlin instead of Ringo Star. What I don't know, he re-narrated the first two seasons. Is that what that means?
Jake:Sure sounds that way Re-narrated. He didn't even know that was a word.
Noah:Why would you I mean, if you already have it narrated, why would you re-narrate it?
Jake:Because nobody can understand the Brits. Thomas is over here.
Frank:That's probably it.
Jake:He went to the Lou. He took the lift up to the Lou.
Noah:Everyone thought I was a genius, but really I just couldn't play with my left hand.
Frank:Great.
Jake:So what's the best experience you've ever had while gaslighting? So best Wow.
Frank:I don't think I have a comment on this.
Noah:I think you do. This is the segment where we call Brandy.
Frank:I think you have a comment. I don't, I'll not share it. Comment that will be recorded on this topic Understood.
Jake:Can we stop the recording for a moment, noah?
Frank:Noah, what's your best experience gaslighting someone?
Noah:I also have no comments on gaslighting.
Frank:Why.
Noah:You guys are all seems like Heansies, seems like it's a thing for cake?
Frank:Did you tell us yours? Yeah, what was it?
Jake:You didn't tell us specific. I said it was bad and it led to total and utter, absolute destruction. Yeah, mine too, but-.
Frank:Alright, so I think Not for me, just for others, of course.
Noah:Of course, as is usually the case with gaslighting, this has been jokes about gaslighting with the unbecoming platypus podcast.
Jake:Alright. So if I have this straight, I think we've all agreed at this point that gaslighting is bad. Are we on the same page On the count of?
Noah:three. Let's all give our answer One, two, three, yes.
Frank:There's good and evil in everyone.
Noah:Yep, we had three different answers. Just now Wait we did.
Frank:I didn't hear Jake expressing-.
Jake:Exactly, I didn't express an answer, I think it was the most like characteristic answer for all of us yeah, noah's like yes absolutely Jake.
Noah:You can't decide on anything.
Frank:Do you think you should gaslight yourself? Let's say you're going to write a mythology for yourself and it's not true what? But you're trying to get it to become true.
Noah:I have a question for Jake on mythology. If you're trying to write a myth and you don't have a sheet, can you write a myth?
Frank:You need a myth sheet. What if you only have a Google sheet?
Jake:No, you need a myth sheet.
Noah:We're starting to have inside jokes and our listeners are going to love it.
Jake:Probably that's from the last episode here. Remember when they said the thing.
Frank:The dumb horse sheet thing.
Jake:That's why we call it the top-. I'm not to be in the episode and I'm editing so-.
Noah:Why.
Jake:Are you editing? Did you already do it?
Noah:No, I'm afraid.
Jake:Okay, you have two days not to be afraid oh yeah, we should-.
Noah:No, you should do this one and then give me more time.
Jake:Yeah, I think what you're saying is should you sublimate bad behavioral traits and try to direct them in a good direction? Give positive results from a poor character trait?
Frank:What is an example of a poor character trait?
Jake:A poor picture trait is-.
Noah:How's the sentimental tendency I have?
Jake:no problem with it that is no alcohol involved in the hanging of this episode. It's not even 11 pm it is Harnian suns.
Frank:It's not even 11 am. That's your tea Blender. I feel like our focus is on what? Yeah, what's it on? It's enabled? Oh, on, whatever thought comes next.
Noah:Yeah, I, this was such a. This was supposed to be a follow-up on our self-reflection episode. Yeah, would you like a summary? I don't typically ask for those jaked.
Jake:So what's kind of interesting is that back before I had really pushed into any sort of Gaslight and growth, I kind of wanted little tidbits of information about myself that I could work on. I was so sort of alienated from myself, such a stranger to what was going on in my head, that I remember asking you guys I think it was a birthday thing and we were all sitting around a bit bonfire and I said what are my most toxic traits? These were the types of things I would ask and I wanted information. It wasn't like I said, hey, you guys are the authority on me, but information about how I exist in the world, how I'm perceived, give me something to help me out here. Yeah, as I've kind of progressed, I've become better at knowing myself and what's going on in real time. But yeah, that's kind of where it started was asking other people to be a mirror for me.
Frank:Yeah, if you have people who will be honest with you, this is valuable. I think most people don't want that on some level Are they afraid of it or something. I don't know anything about that experience. It's really never been mine. Ever since I can remember ever being in the world, I've always hoped people would tell me how it is. That's probably why I'm friends with you guys.
Noah:What I think is interesting about the concept of self-reflection through others is unless you're willing to do the work yourself, I don't think it matters. I think it can be. We like to toss around the term mirror for sure, Maybe it's a recognition point for yourself, but you still have to do the work. If you're willing to do the work, I don't know that you actively need others for self-reflection.
Frank:Oh, I guess not, but.
Noah:I.
Frank:Well, hold up If you're not open to it already you're not going to get self-reflection from others.
Noah:Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, okay.
Jake:Yeah, well, and maybe we should start with this. So I think that, okay, not that there are two, but I see two high-level types of reflection through others. One is saying hey, how do you see me? It's this very active Frank. Hey, what are my toxic traits? Tell me, sure, anytime man. The other one is a little it's really self-reflection in and of yourself, but you're using other people as a mirror. It's like okay, I say this, they respond that way. Okay, I say this thing to Frank and I say this thing to Noah, and for some reason I get defensive responses from both of them. I didn't mean it in any sort of offensive way. So why is it defensive? Because you talk to us like children, right. So I and cataloging that for later so I can then use this as sort of like an input output. Okay, this was the input, this was the output I received. What can I figure out from that? And these, to me, are two different categories.
Noah:I also have a really good idea for later, because I'm going to throw it out there now and then we'll get back to Jake. But I think, speed round, we go back and forth naming toxic traits of Jake, okay.
Frank:All right, I'm down.
Jake:This is the other thing that's really interesting, just to start it out with using others as a mirror. If you use that first method and you say, hey, what do you think about me? What was going on here? Watch yourself whenever the other person starts to speak, because likely it's going to be invalidation. That's what it is for me. Okay, that person said this thing and I see this welling up, this argumentation structure that comes up and is like no, they don't know because of this, no, they're wrong because they don't understand this piece.
Frank:Let me give them more information. Can you say this again in a more summary version?
Jake:Yeah. So you say Jake treats us like children, Right? And so I created a definition of what you mean by that in my mind. And I think okay, so he probably means this specific interpretation. Now why would he think that? Oh, he just doesn't know that the reason that I'm doing that is because of this environmental variable. So I'll tell him that it'll invalidate this thing, and now I don't have to look at it.
Frank:Yeah, that's a defense mechanism in action, absolutely.
Jake:What's your point? My point is that kind of what Noah was saying if you are on this path and you actually have friends who you trust and you actually want to know the truth, watch the invalidation mechanism start ticking in your mind. Oh yeah okay, and try not to do it for five minutes. Yeah, I mean, and I turn that off for five minutes, because it will be there, I promise.
Noah:Yeah, it does get a little bit. Certainly, using others as as a reflection of your own, you know, or as a as a catalyst for self-reflection, let's say, is valuable. But I do think there are some dangers involved because those those individuals reactions are also based on their own things so, so you could Get the same reaction from Frank and I.
Noah:Both of us have it let's say, a self like a defensive Response. Both of us could be responding defensively for completely different reasons that have completely 100% yeah, nothing, nothing to do with you and 100% to do with our own personal lives that are happening, yeah, and so for you to just automatically go? Oh, they both defended themselves here. What did I do wrong?
Jake:Yeah is. There is some danger in that it's a trigger for self-reflection. It doesn't mean there is something here it is my fault, but asking that question and leaving open the potential that you are doing Something is is very helpful.
Frank:Yeah, well, and there there's like another type of self-reflection that you get through others that's not as direct at all, which is like this is the fifth time in a row You've been fired for being the angry guy in the office. Nobody said like hey, don't be the angry guy, but you might want to look into it, it's sure.
Jake:Absolutely, have you been fired.
Noah:I have been fired because of being the angry guy in no way.
Frank:Okay, have you been fired? No, highly recommend it, have you?
Jake:never been fired. I've been laid off, though.
Frank:That's the same thing, they just call it different some.
Jake:I mean it was at the beginning of cove it. But yeah, I mean, I think oh I mean if you're talking about the mental things that happen to you as soon as you get laid off. It's it's a month or two, or five.
Frank:I would be far angrier if I were laid off, then fired.
Jake:Yeah, to be honest.
Frank:It's like you couldn't just tell me the truth, right? We're not making enough money and You're not helping it, so we can't keep you around here. That's what's happening. Oh, oh sure, you know that's firing. I don't know.
Noah:Hmm, well, I mean, I think it. This isn't what the conversation is it's? Not but you. It's where you can be like more complex than that, if I like us, yes that's a caterpillar.
Frank:It's way more complex than that right Caterpillar?
Noah:I don't. How would I know?
Frank:Because, like the people who work at caterpillar, are a welder on the 737 truck line Mm-hmm and they didn't sell 737.
Noah:I think is an airplane.
Frank:It's a both Okay.
Jake:He said Boeing weird.
Frank:I did say, boeing weird.
Noah:Last, I just flew American Airlines and I was on a caterpillar 7 this thing had a giant scoop in the front. That was a yellow plane. Let me tell you.
Frank:Yeah, it's a 797, so I was wrong scooping the tops of mountains. Anyways, yeah, they're working on 797. They didn't sell as many of them in Australia this year, so, mm-hmm, we don't need as many welders.
Jake:We're gonna go down to two shifts like that's a little, and this happens once a quarter. Well, decatur's gonna be okay. No, wait a second. Actually the economy is failing. Yeah, caterpillar laid off again, anyways.
Noah:I don't know, I'm a major meaning, the business model of caterpillar, because, like in Decatur I don't know if they still do, but that's where they used to at least Manufacture those massive mining trucks yeah, the ones where they can turn a semi around in the like, literally in the the seven, the better, the trap.
Jake:Yeah, well, they have balls for wheels, and then they could just rotate and I just wonder what's the market for those?
Noah:How many of those massive trucks do you need in the world?
Jake:Things are insane, man. So what I'm hearing, though, is that there really are a lot of different things that this could mean and does mean. Right, it's like, hey, I can ask people directly be a mirror for me, tell me how this is feeling. Number two I can just kind of pay attention and say when I do certain things, people seem to respond in a certain way. Another way is that I can Just pay attention to patterns in my life and be like okay, what, what has seemed to be the result of my behavior in the world. You know, this is, this is probably a me thing, and not that specific person and that specific person and that specific person five times over.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:Um, these are. These are very different. There's another one that I've also noticed and it's that as I dig into the qualities in myself, so, for instance, I'm trying to do a better job of giving examples instead of just keeping this totally meta. So, for instance, I I Feel as though I'm not allowed to be an emotional person. This is embarrassing. This is not a good thing to be in the world. Young Jake believes this.
Jake:As I grow up and I start to look into that shadow and say I never should have put you there. This is a part of me, it's healthy. I need to actually deal with it. When I look around at other people and see them repress their emotions, this creates an anger type of response in me and I start to realize that I'm frustrated with another human being for Doing this thing. But really, what's going on is I'm frustrated with myself. So what am I really saying here? A way to use another person as a mirror is to say are you having conversations with people in your head? Are you like having arguments with people? Okay, that's your trigger to try to figure out what you're afraid of. To try to figure out what you're defending against in your own life, because it's you, not them.
Frank:I have this out if you don't like it, but one of the most valuable experiences I've ever had in this was watching you and Jessica try to sort out your lives at the end of your relationship.
Frank:Okay because you would ask me to come, like mediate discussions. Basically, you didn't. I don't think you said come mediate discussions, but yeah, like you want to come over, we're gonna talk. It's watching you both project your own issues on each other with like almost no grounding in reality, like you could not see each other's points, for anything was so sad and it's gonna forever. It's forever created memories for me of what not to do in relationships, because it happens all the time. I mean I responded to those calls all the time as a paramedic, even where something becomes violence, because then I'm like what well, what happened? And the stories are totally different. Like there are two people there who have completely different stories about what happened. And seeing that was like I've never seen it up close and so detailed as I saw with you too.
Jake:Yeah, what was so weird about that is to know it's occurring, and I mean, I think that was that was what sort of drew us to that necessary ending. It was like this is this is painful, but unfortunately I can't see you as the person you are. All I can see are the ways that I feel hurt by you, and I don't even know how to start unraveling that.
Frank:Sure, yeah, deep and twisty for sure, mm, hmm, both sides, yeah. But it made honesty seem even more important and and avoiding projection, like I don't know how frequent it is for most people that they hear someone say something and they're like that is not how I feel, what you just said is not my reality. But for a long time I sort of minimized that. I was like what's it matter how I feel, I'm just going to help you get to whatever you need to happen in the world. But I think it's valuable to even say hey, that is not how I feel.
Jake:So what I just heard when you said that was hey, not only am I using other people as mirrors, but they're using me, and it's kind of incumbent on me as a human to be a mirror with high fidelity for them. Yeah, and you're wrong.
Frank:Yeah Well, and for me that's been something that's like not a there's not a strong energy source for that. I'm like usually solving problems in my mind. There's a lot going on. For me that I'm it's always been like sort of like oh man, you're so wrong about that, but who has the time to go through it? Like what's the value of that? And it's become more valuable to me recently because I just want to see every like everyone level up, get better in the world, like be better at stuff. So now I'm more likely to be like that's not how I feel. I don't know what caused you to think that, but I would like to talk about it if you want. And still, some part of me is like it's exhausting, it's really exhausting.
Frank:Yeah, because ever, because most people also get lost on their side, and then they get lost on your side and then, like, the conversation becomes about something different and it's just like that wasn't what I was talking about. You're talking about something else.
Jake:I think, yeah, I mean, this conversation is is going in multiple different directions, but that is sort of a requirement of, let's just say, a healthy, sustainable relationship, and it is that you are willing to sit down and you trust the other person is willing to sit down and say, hey, there's a tangle. Let's unravel this now before it becomes this unravelable yarn ball of destruction. I think back to my relationship with Jessica and, again, that distinction between honesty and truth. Jessica would often tell me hey, are you upset or you seem really upset? I'm not upset. I'm not upset because that was true for me. That was me being honest. I had zero connection with my actual emotions. I had repressed them so deep that I believed I was telling the truth, and so I would just get frustrated with her for being for quote unquote projecting on me Like no, you think I'm angry, I'm not actually angry, and this created the sort of beginnings of that.
Jake:So earlier, when I said hey, if you're going to use other people as a mirror, expect that defense response, expect your mental faculties to start trying to invalidate what the other person is saying and just ask yourself what it would be. What would it be like if this was true. Everything inside of me is fighting it. It's not true. It can't be true. But let me just just for a second. What do they mean? What could it be?
Frank:Yeah, yeah. Well, those overrides are important to look at for sure, like things that you just override, like there's no way. That's true. I had such a complex thought that I was going to vocalize, but it died.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:Yeah, so I think it as a Enneagram 5, I even remember early in my life like some people who did get me would tell other. I've heard other people say like, ah, he's just often misunderstood, and so that became a part of my narrative, like, yeah, of course you misunderstand me. I'm often misunderstood, so I don't care to correct the record. It's okay that you think I'm whatever thing you just said, but if you're going to be in a relationship with people, then you may as well spend the time to be understood, and it gets better if you do it and it gets worse if you don't. Yeah, yeah so.
Jake:Well, you and I have lived together for almost two years now.
Jake:Yeah, and we've had. I mean, it's not like we hang out in the same rooms often it's actually fairly rare but we do interact far more often than we ever did and we have situations that affect us both equally. So there's more opportunity for conflict, there's more opportunity for misunderstandings or projections or whatever, and on multiple occasions I have tried to go to the effort of like, hey, these are my thoughts and I'm started out really, really, really bad at it. I'm still not great at it, but I'm trying to do this. And something that's been really interesting it's a pattern of what I've acknowledged from you, and the first time I did it I wrote this like five page letter.
Jake:I just wanted to get my thoughts out in some sort of structure and you said it is shocking that someone has the energy to actually put into getting this out there. And I mean you showed appreciation for it. But that's something that's been interesting, because it really is a desire in my heart to know and be known with the people that I'm in a relationship with, and seeing them take the time to either try to understand me and sit with that or not is almost this filter for like OK, how in this, are you? Because I'm really in it. Yeah, and it's not to win an argument. It's literally to say, hey, I'm about to say some things and some of it's going to be wrong, but it is accurately representing what I think and feel right now. So let's help each other to see how we're misidentifying this reality.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, and I mean this goes back to like character, character structure and like all the realities of who you become over, but like if you don't think of yourself as a meaningful part of the world and you're misunderstood, you're like cares, like I'm not, it doesn't matter how I feel you got it wrong, but who cares? Let's get you what you need, and that's just not the approach for the long term and I think everybody's story does matter and is important and we need your voice and understanding you, and so it's just something I've like changed over time my response to it. It's still not always energetic for me. I'm like, oh man, this is so far off that like can't we just let it fade in the distance?
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:Let time heal this wound. We need to go through the thing where I say this and you say no, that's not it at all, and then we go back and forth or whatever.
Jake:Yeah, sometimes it definitely does not feel worth it. And then you, I don't know, there's something inside of me that goes it's actually the only thing that's worth it. It's like you're going to move through this life and things are going to change and some of them are going to be meaningful and others aren't. But like having mirrors that you can actually depend on is huge, and part of being able to trust them If even on a subconscious level, like you might say yeah, that's my friend, I trust them. We've been friends for 20 years.
Jake:But at a subconscious level, if some part of you is holding back because of that one time that they got it wrong and you didn't correct them, you're going to be thinking they don't really know me, they actually misunderstand me pretty often and you know this whole thing, so it's so valuable. One of the coolest things ever actually that struck me three minutes ago is you said I had this complex idea that I was going to vocalize and I lost it. I was like that's so cool because a year ago I mean like I don't vocalize ideas, they're too complex, I'm not going to put that effort in.
Frank:Definitely. Yeah, it's exactly that, and the more complex it is and I try to order it before I get it out and then I'm like I lost some piece of it and it's gone. It's good, but it's worth trying. I should have a notepad maybe.
Jake:That's weird too, though, because have you ever started like something? You've been clearing your?
Noah:head. Do you own a?
Jake:pen.
Frank:I own an Apple Pencil.
Noah:Who owns pens? I have an. Apple Pencil Once a year. When I need to write, I can't find a pen.
Jake:You have got this Cherry Wood yeah.
Frank:Leather bound fountain pens.
Jake:It's not leather bound, but I do write in a leather bound journal with it. Hey, Jake, it's from Faber Castell. Where'd you get it? You know who knows really.
Frank:No, where did you just get it from?
Jake:Oh, I got it from the leather bound binding that it was in. No, it was in my leather satchel here Sounds leather.
Noah:He does know where he got the pen. I'm not talking about his bag, I'm talking about he knows where he purchased that pen. Of course, yeah of course I do. He doesn't want to say it.
Frank:Right, of course not. I was referencing its leather boundness when you grabbed it.
Jake:I got you. Yeah, I get that now.
Frank:Yeah.
Noah:It's just a lot of leather over there.
Jake:So, no, you seem eager to list some of my toxic traits. You want to go? I just thought it was a funny concept a speed round of I thought we could just give the listeners an example of how to use other people as a mirror.
Frank:No, I don't think you talk to people as children always, or anything like that, just to be clear. But if you oh, I just mean if you are doing the particular experiment that you're referencing, where you're like it seems like everyone's defensive, it seems most likely that the toxic trait you're displaying at that time was talking to them like children.
Jake:Or like idiots. How does it feel whenever I do that for you, like that, like an idiot? Okay, like condescending?
Frank:Yeah, condescending.
Noah:Yeah, just like we have. No, we've never thought about this before. And you are giving it both definition and, I guess, explanation.
Frank:Yeah, it's sort of like this Jake. You know that? No, it's never like that. It's like this Jake in ancient. No, it's something like that, though you could never come up with the words. No, I know it's really hard to come up with the words, but you would need to know when Edison invented the light bulb, and I don't so when he did in 19, whatever, 18, whatever, in 18, whatever, he invented the light bulb and then throughout the history of electricity, we now have wires in the walls and switches, and the switches allow you to turn the light on, so you can just turn the light on whenever you want.
Frank:It's still crazy to me that you and you're like. What did you just say to me? Why did you tell me all that I know how to turn a light on?
Noah:Jake, it's still crazy to me that he invented the light bulb with the key and a kite.
Jake:My primary problem here is saying that Edison invented the light bulb. He inherited the intellectual property for this. This is exactly what I'm saying.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:Yeah, no, this is interesting. So, as an example of the defense mechanism, the invalidation process, like as soon as you said that I went. Okay, well, sometimes on the podcast, I don't know the experiences of the listener, so I'm imagining this person in my mind and I do need to take them through this whole journey, so I'll just invalidate that. You're actually wrong. I don't treat people like children. There's a reason for why.
Noah:I think the bigger problem with the whole treating people like children thing is that I just don't think it's needed most of the time. I appreciate that you go oh, maybe they don't understand all this backstory, I should inform them. But I think the bigger problem is that you think there's a need to fill all of this backstory when most human beings are intelligent, especially contextually.
Jake:Yeah, so that's no, I totally appreciate that. I would actually say this. The fault for me is that I have a desire to be known, right, and what my favorite part of any problem is is never the conclusion, but all of the connecting pieces. So when I'm sharing this piece of information, I couldn't care less what the ending point is. It's like, isn't it so cool? There was this mystery and I got to this place by thinking about this and then, three steps down, that's going to come back into play. So for me, it's almost like this story of how the ending piece was uncovered. So the way that I see my fault is actually at not doing a better job of preparing the story itself. It all comes out in a jumble and I give you every single intricate detail. As opposed to, here's a well homogenized story.
Frank:I think your mirror could use some precision.
Jake:No, fix what you said.
Noah:I think we gave you this feedback in like what you just said. I think we gave you this feedback early on in this podcast Not this recording, but I mean our overarching podcast.
Jake:Nine months ago or whatever that was.
Noah:I feel like we gave you this feedback, but I don't remember what our words were, but it was something like that we understand that you're trying to give a backstory. We understand that you're interested in how it all connects. You just start saying it like we're idiots instead of saying, hey, setting it up essentially.
Frank:I think what I see is that what you're describing is more of a pleasure drive. It's like this is exciting. Then there's dopamine involved the brain.
Noah:Pinky in the brain.
Jake:So I wouldn't have been able to describe to you. This is actually a really interesting example, because we mentioned it nine months ago, because my friends decided to reflect this back to me. Was I able to give you this insight? That seemed like I was responding to what Noah said right then, but really it's been nine months of uncovering this and me saying I have this desire for validation that I get from telling you and here's how I figured it out which is different than actually saying. The goal here is to get you to understand this information and to be as excited as I am.
Noah:So I feel like we've been telling him the validation thing for years.
Jake:Isn't that interesting. The words themselves don't matter, it's the picture that you have to evoke in someone's mind to get them to see the same thing.
Noah:I mean we say it as friends in a really jerkish way.
Frank:That's interesting I try to say it less jerkish, for sure, than you do.
Noah:There's Jake again needing validation. That's a good thing. I think you've done a good job and I think I haven't said it in a long time because you haven't given me many reasons.
Frank:Hey, yeah, I just referenced your sweater.
Noah:Do we have an applause sound effect?
Frank:No, Okay, that's a bad applause sound effect.
Noah:Can we record that for later?
Frank:We already did record it.
Noah:No our applause. I think, yeah, all right, ready One, two. Wait, is it one, two, three go, or do we go on three?
Frank:One, two, three go One two, three. Did you guys feel like we discussed the importance of honesty?
Jake:I briefly touched on what I think was that, and it's this idea that there's a subconscious part of me that will doubt the fidelity of your observations as my mirror if I don't give you feedback when you're wrong. Yeah, so yeah, I think that honesty is important, for that it only works if it's like 100% of the time.
Frank:Yeah, it's difficult to be sensitive to other people's feelings while expressing your own and finding out that both of them don't match what you thought they would be.
Jake:Yes, it is that is a difficult experience. You might find that there's an automatic reaction and you've got words coming out of your mouth telling the other person that they're wrong, before you even decided that you should talk Like wow, why?
Frank:am I saying all of this? Yeah, or you might find yourself leaving the situation to go do something else, because isolation is easier than this.
Jake:Or you might.
Frank:I can say as if you want. Okay, yeah, stay in mind, go for it. You might find yourself just overpowering the other person completely, so that they shot up. Is that what I do? I've seen you do it, but it's probably not how you experience it. What are you thinking and feeling right now?
Noah:No, I'm wondering. I'd like an example of an overpowering situation.
Frank:All right, full of positive Nope. Help me give him one.
Jake:I don't know If you can't think of it.
Noah:There's not a good example. Well, just there. What?
Jake:does that mean?
Frank:You see, that's the greatest example.
Noah:What you can't see on the podcast was the smile I gave Frank when I did that, because the smile makes it not true. Well, I just didn't want it. I didn't want them to think that I just did it, not on purpose, it's okay. So what we've learned is that reflection from others is only helpful when they can actually reflect.
Frank:I don't know if that's true. I think it often feels like they can't reflect, and then you realize that, oh, maybe there's something there.
Noah:No, I think you're probably accurate. I would like an example of one.
Frank:That's what I'm saying. Give him an example.
Jake:Jake, you're the one who brought it up.
Frank:Does it mean I'm the only one who knows about it?
Noah:The fear of the aid is strong.
Frank:I am not afraid. I don't have an example of it. It's not meaningful to me. I'm a five. You need someone who would care about this. You need a four to answer this question for you.
Noah:I forget them as soon as they happen. The force.
Frank:No, the eight overpowering. I'm like what a douche.
Noah:Can we have a podcast of making fun of any grip stereotypes? Because just the four disappearing, that was pretty fun.
Frank:Give him an example. Man, we got it in this podcast.
Jake:Well, unfortunately, I don't know Exactly what you were thinking when you said it, which makes me feel like I couldn't give an example.
Noah:What's this? It actually equals the same thing. Do you feel like I'm trying to think of a podcast where you thought I was shutting it down, Like the Slack podcast?
Frank:I don't remember it, but yeah, that sounds right.
Noah:Yeah, I would say. I mean, without a good example it's hard to say for sure. I would say that it's typically for me. My experience would be no, I just this is what I think on this situation and I'm done talking about it.
Frank:Like if it's trivial. Right because it's trivial to you, but it may not be trivial to both people in the relationship.
Noah:Sure, would you say that Slack is trivial.
Jake:Well, I'd rather say the situation be what you're talking about.
Frank:What's the central role situation. That appeal, that's good. I don't even know what happened there, but yes, that certainly was overpowering the environment.
Noah:Yeah, Good example, guys. That's a good example. I don't remember it, you don't. No, that's what you said essentially. Oh, that's good. I don't remember what happened.
Frank:No, I don't. I don't remember the details very well, but I do remember the way it made me feel, and I specifically remember the way it made Brandy feel.
Noah:How do you know how Brandy felt?
Frank:She told me about it for most of the day.
Noah:Interesting.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:I mean, I remember it seemed like this large emotional outburst that was played off like a joke, but regardless and maybe it was right you get the opportunity to say whatever it meant, regardless. The result right, the result of the behavior is that everyone becomes uncomfortable. They say, well, this isn't going anywhere and there's no sense in the conversation continuing because it's over.
Frank:Yeah, you achieved control.
Noah:Yeah, usually if something like that happens, it is a joke, but it is pointing to something. Like most comedy, it's pointing to something that is true and unjust and again, for a, it's usually something that's unjust.
Frank:Yeah. Yeah, I don't have a feeling about like whether it's good or not, like I think all of the defense mechanisms are good in some situations and probably not in others. I have personally experienced great benefit from isolating in problems, but this doesn't make it good to do all the time.
Noah:Sure, if it's the cinnamon roll thing that I'm thinking of, that was actually just you and me, and then you brought it back up late. The next time we were there with the group, but it was just you and me sitting at a table and I made sure that we split them evenly.
Frank:Yeah. Well, whatever, when I just referenced, I was there for there was a callback to that, I think for you, maybe for me too, I don't know, but these cinnamon rolls were 50 cents. And they had no meaning to me.
Noah:Right. Which from my perspective is like you're seriously taking my response. Serious enough about this thing. That we both agree doesn't matter. My response was a joke.
Frank:Yeah, and I don't think everyone interpreted it as such.
Noah:Right, but I don't think that I brought it back up. It doesn't matter because we can't remember the situation accurately anyway. But my point is the situation with the whole group. I'm guessing you brought that back up Because it was certainly not something I was fixated on.
Frank:Sure, yeah, I mean no, if we have the time, because we're already past the time. But I think there's value in discussing this more Because I think, like this is all me, 100% my side view. I think probably something about that was embarrassing to you and you wanted to have the narrative be different. That's just my gut instinct on it. I could be wrong.
Noah:Yeah, I would say you are wrong about that, but that's fine, that it's your experience.
Frank:Well, it's definitely my experience, but I just like that seemed like what happened to me and I don't know.
Jake:Yeah, it would probably be better to have a closer example to the moment than several months back or whatever. But yeah, it's definitely interesting that we all have different ways of dealing with that. I, too, have seen that treat someone like a child defense mechanism work for the good as well, and it's simply that like if I see another person and I think, wow, they're just failing hard, like seeing them as a child who might be dealing with any number of things really creates a huge amount of empathy for me. I'm just going to imagine, for this moment in time, they're having the hardest day of their life. Let me talk to them like that, as opposed to you're failing, like you're doing this on purpose, whatever it might be.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the like. As a five, I go to the eight stuff in one of the times. Yeah, that's your feels like strength integration. So I definitely remember having done that many times in, like when I was paramedic. For sure I'm not that reactive, I'm not that must have control of each scenario, but if something really wrong is happening then I do become that yeah, which is totally opposite of my natural defensive, like back away. That's why it's so memorable to me.
Jake:But yeah, I have the eight wing and it arises in moments of injustice, I would say, and I have to be careful because it's also generally emotionally motivated.
Frank:That's right. You might get the thing wrong. It may not be unjust, but it felt unjust. And then that's. I mean, I don't know the dangers of being an eight, but that seems like one of the ones.
Noah:Well, I think that's the danger of any defense mechanism. Yeah, that it's your defense mechanism.
Frank:Right, yeah, yeah. And if something touches a nerve, but then, in fact, oh, it didn't, it wasn't what I thought it was, then it's like, oh, I'm doing the wrong here, I am saying these words and I don't even, didn't even choose to. Yeah, all right, awesome.
Jake:So we can use ourselves as mirrors and we can use other people as mirrors. That's right In different ways. Awesome, awesome.
Frank:Thanks guys, thanks for listening.