Every Saturday at 8:16 AM, like clockwork, our podcast recording is graced with a mysterious ding, setting the stage for a whimsical journey through the unexpected and the everyday. We tackle the power of routine and its interruptions, segue into the whimsy of fashion and its personal impact, debating everything from the color analysis of a CrossFit hoodie to the nostalgia evoked by cultural icons. As we engage with the curious interplay between our sartorial choices and the memories they invoke, we also cast a critical eye on the shiny, sometimes deceptive allure of online personalities and their success tales.
With a pivot towards the serious, our conversation flows into the murky waters of sales pitches and business ethics. We share tales of companies gone astray and dissect advertisements, probing the essence of authenticity and the trust it engenders. This week, the spotlight falls on the linguistic intricacies of consonantal harmony and its effects on our perceptions, leading us to question the integrity behind one-size-fits-all success mantras. Diving deeper, we consider the significance of tailored strategies, pondering the weight of personal agency in the quest for achievement against the backdrop of authoritative guidance.
Capping off our eclectic discussion, we delve into the responsibilities that lie with both content creators and consumers in the ever-evolving digital marketplace. We examine the delicate balance of transparency, the safety net of refund policies, and the crafting of meaningful experiences that can effectuate genuine behavior change. The convergence of trust, value, and behavior presents a rich tapestry of considerations for anyone navigating personal development or the intricate dance of consumer-provider dynamics. Join us for an episode that promises to leave you pondering the complexities of the digital age long after the soundwaves have faded.
Every Saturday at 8:16 AM, like clockwork, our podcast recording is graced with a mysterious ding, setting the stage for a whimsical journey through the unexpected and the everyday. We tackle the power of routine and its interruptions, segue into the whimsy of fashion and its personal impact, debating everything from the color analysis of a CrossFit hoodie to the nostalgia evoked by cultural icons. As we engage with the curious interplay between our sartorial choices and the memories they invoke, we also cast a critical eye on the shiny, sometimes deceptive allure of online personalities and their success tales.
With a pivot towards the serious, our conversation flows into the murky waters of sales pitches and business ethics. We share tales of companies gone astray and dissect advertisements, probing the essence of authenticity and the trust it engenders. This week, the spotlight falls on the linguistic intricacies of consonantal harmony and its effects on our perceptions, leading us to question the integrity behind one-size-fits-all success mantras. Diving deeper, we consider the significance of tailored strategies, pondering the weight of personal agency in the quest for achievement against the backdrop of authoritative guidance.
Capping off our eclectic discussion, we delve into the responsibilities that lie with both content creators and consumers in the ever-evolving digital marketplace. We examine the delicate balance of transparency, the safety net of refund policies, and the crafting of meaningful experiences that can effectuate genuine behavior change. The convergence of trust, value, and behavior presents a rich tapestry of considerations for anyone navigating personal development or the intricate dance of consumer-provider dynamics. Join us for an episode that promises to leave you pondering the complexities of the digital age long after the soundwaves have faded.
It happens every week at the same time.
Frank:It does. Yeah, what does?
Jake:I can't quite hit that frequency right now At Saturday at eight.
Frank:No I think that's what happens every Saturday.
Jake:Every week at this time.
Noah:Saturday at eight sixteen. There's always a ding During podcast at eight, sixteen.
Jake:There's always a ding.
Frank:Let me do not, did you?
Noah:hear him try to ding, though it's early.
Jake:He said I'll have you know. It's Saturday morning at eight sixteen.
Frank:Dang.
Jake:I was trying to hit the note, you know.
Frank:Yeah, it sounded really good to me.
Jake:Thank you, it was a vulnerable moment. Was it.
Frank:Was it.
Jake:So you know that sweater that made a really good impression on you, frank. No the.
Noah:Mr Clean sweater.
Frank:Yes, but if you want to rephrase it, then I will know which sweater you're talking about.
Jake:Oh, it was the one that I wore last week that you complimented me on.
Frank:Can you rephrase it again? I don't understand I'm saying completely Truthful statements. Do you know that meaningless sweater from last week? Yeah, the one.
Jake:OK, so that one. I wore that on Christmas and my mom sent me a text out of nowhere and she said, like at Christmas, during Christmas no, this was like two days ago. Well, I wore it during Christmas, yes, and she's out of nowhere. I really like that sweater you wore at Christmas. Son looked nice on you and I feel like it's been a long time since seeing you in anything but the scarf sweaters. Scarf sweaters yeah, she means like the shawl Nick, the shawl collar sweaters that I wear. I just thought it was notable that she thought it was notable.
Frank:Hmm, did it make you feel vulnerable that she thought that?
Jake:No, this is small talk. Why are you trying to jump into the topic? Already we got a small talk and then transition hard. All right, my bad.
Noah:I mean, that was a pretty hard transition it was I agree.
Frank:Yeah, it was. So. Do you like that sweater? Yeah, I like that. Would you buy it again? Would you buy it in blue?
Jake:Blue is not the greatest color on me. I don't. I don't love blue. Yeah, I'd probably buy it in like a brown, oh yeah.
Frank:I don't think I'd buy a brown sweater under any circumstances.
Jake:OK, Wow, how about you know brown, brown sweater?
Noah:It's hard to say not under any circumstances, because I can't imagine every circumstance.
Frank:How about brown swagger? No, definitely not. It's like a swagger?
Noah:Definitely not, would you?
Jake:Oh, I love it. Yeah, I think it's great.
Frank:Would you wear a sweater?
Jake:Would I wear a brown sweater, well, even brown sweater, right? Yeah, absolutely I would do that.
Frank:Like a themed logo sweater. No, I don't do that.
Jake:There's a logo on that that that accepts it from my wearable wearability.
Frank:He's the only one wearing a logo sweater at the moment.
Noah:He is the only one wearing a branded sweater at the moment Sucks For those of you listening.
Jake:I don't consider this a sweater. He's wearing I also don't consider this clothing. This is I'm not wearing clothing today.
Frank:Yeah, if you don't have access to the premium video feed, he's wearing a crossfit hoodie that is a color somewhere between pink and orange.
Jake:It's vibrant red. No, it's a stop sign red.
Noah:No it's definitely not that.
Frank:It's more of a peachy red.
Noah:Yeah, it's very it's between pink and orange I feel like it's glowing it's or maybe between pink and red, I don't know, but it's something. It's definitely not red. There's an orange quality to it. Yeah, I'm glad that you changed your tune. After saying it's a vibe.
Jake:It is. I don't see these as conflicting.
Frank:No, I think you do. Do you know those yellow shorts, the shorts with the yellow on them, that I have? Every time you come in on them, you're like, wow, you have bright shorts on.
Jake:Oh, sure OK those are vibrant. Yeah, I feel like this is vibrant, like it's not a natural red. This is a red that you find in a crayon box Exactly.
Noah:Mm, hmm, but it says crossfit on it right across the chest.
Jake:Yeah, this isn't a sweater.
Frank:That's yeah Good point.
Jake:Yeah, I mean, I'm not including this front.
Noah:Is the shirt you have under that? Is that branded to?
Jake:Mm, hmm, yeah, both of them say coach on them that says coach, yeah, coach.
Noah:branded crossfit shirts.
Jake:You guys remember that show Coach.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, cool, you remember Cheers.
Jake:I mean, I don't know if I do remember it.
Noah:You remember that show Laverne and Shirley, yeah.
Frank:Not really.
Noah:Are you going to do another one? Do you remember?
Frank:Mm, hmm, what the Walker Texas Ranger.
Jake:I do remember Walker, texas Ranger, yeah, and in the total gym. I remember that also.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, total gym. This is a callback to when we talked about girls gone wild.
Noah:Do you remember Ty Bo?
Jake:I do. I referenced it recently.
Noah:Billy Blanks.
Frank:In a Jif. Do you remember Ty Lopez? I don't you do Mm?
Jake:hmm, did he go by, ty Lo.
Frank:No, ty Lopez, he was a guy. He was one of the first YouTube ad buyers and he, like, spent a lot of money on YouTube ads that were a rented limousine I don't know a rented Lamborghini in his garage. Talking about how he got this Lamborghini I rented it, but he didn't say that. He said this is one of my many, or something. He was feigning wealth.
Jake:OK.
Frank:And selling courses or something Nice. I don't know this. This is all this. You could check this on Snopes probably. Mm hmm, do you guys remember Snopes? But that's the story around Ty Lopez. I think he sells a lot of money, probably from that yeah Thing that he did or didn't do. Wow, there's someone on the entrepreneur Reddit that was very upset that Ty Lopez scammed him. Mm hmm, and he wants a refund and he already messaged support at tylopescom.
Jake:What year was that? Last year?
Noah:Last year, ok, ok, and he was the first one using ads.
Frank:Yeah, a long time ago. Now he has his top 19 systems available at tylopescom 19 courses Now hold on a second, so Ty Lopez may have lied about his wealth. To get his wealth To get his wealth.
Jake:Does that count as a scam? Like is this user saying that he did not actually get value from the systems, the courses that were sold?
Frank:Um, he bought Ty Lopez course, black Belt, sales, persuasion and Mastery for $97.
Jake:Seems to me Ty Lopez knows a thing or two about persuasion and sales.
Frank:It turns out the course doesn't even exist. Oh, that's a problem. After buying I couldn't access it because it's coming soon, so basically, I spent my money on nothing. I decided to give him a chance and email his support about when the course would come online, since, in all honesty, I don't want to learn sales next month or even next year. I need it now. Well, nobody answered me, and then he emailed support.
Jake:I googled Ty Lopez, I will agree that that's a scam. Sounds like a scam.
Noah:I googled Ty Lopez and it says people also search for Gary Vaynerchuk, Grant Cardone, Dan Locke, Brandon Condi, Josh King, Madrid, Alex Mer, Gary Cardone, Tony Robbins, Gary Cardone. Yeah man, they look exactly the like Gary and Grant.
Frank:So, on his social media following, he has 2.8 million Instagram followers, 6.1 million on Facebook, 700,000 on Twitter and 2.3 million on YouTube. But, yeah, you can get all of his courses or some of them.
Jake:You're buying access to the 19 as they come available.
Noah:Ty Lopez official site. How to Live the Good Life.
Jake:Sort of like when you buy an HBO subscription to watch Game of Thrones but the next episode doesn't come out until next week. That's all it is.
Frank:Yeah, which? The 12 types personality profit system. Find the perfect career path with the 12 types personality profit system. This course helps you align your career with your unique personality traits. You'll understand your personal DNA to find a career path that resonates with your individuality and strengths.
Noah:There is a Google ad. This is a sponsored result. Ty Lopez review are his trainings actually legit?
Jake:Wait, what oh he paid for that?
Frank:No, his affiliates probably did. He's probably got an affiliate, but yeah, it's essentially to make his business grow.
Jake:Yeah, yeah Well. Is there a webinar? I could watch about the efficacy of these systems.
Noah:Oh, here's tylopescombetterbusinessbureauprofile. Let's look at that. He has one out of five stars. He has an A plus rating according to the Better Business Bureau.
Frank:Yeah, they're accreditation or whatever. Doesn't mean anything.
Noah:I don't know what, I'm just saying.
Frank:It's like you have a checking account and you're in LLC or something.
Noah:Sure.
Frank:You are an authentic business Doesn't mean you're good Anyways do you think he's authentic?
Jake:Next time you ask me if I remember tylopes, I will say I remember that time that we talked about what tylopes did or did not do. Yeah, All right. This is my own answer.
Noah:Very poor communication with the company. I have requested assistance for over two months and was promised help but never received it. The program I paid for they dissolved without even informing me, though I paid for. Even though I paid for it, I expect better from this company. I purchased the program for about blank and logged into training modules. The first thing they wanted me to do is wait for a call and talk to a consultant, which I assume was related to my purchase. Turns out it was an upsell of a completely different program.
Frank:All right, it's probably worth watching, don't you guys think?
Jake:OK, nine things. There's nine quick observations. Yeah, that guy went to a library free book sale and said I want to take all these. Ok, I'm just going to be walking back and forth between my pickup and these tables. Yeah, also number two. And finally, anybody who bought this guy's system deserves a card. I own a Lamborghini, but I'm shooting this quality of a video on my iPhone in my two-car garage in the three bedroom house.
Frank:Yeah, and you can tell the Lamborghini's usually there, because that's where his marker board is Right.
Jake:Yeah, there's so much like, there's so many signals in this video.
Frank:Yeah, do you remember this being on YouTube? Yeah, I do. Yeah, he like spent a lot of money. He put this in front of everyone on earth, basically, right.
Jake:Well, yeah, it's obvious that he very intentionally put an ad together.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:It's got a lot of the qualities of a good ad. It's got some social proof in there. It's got a few rhetorical tactics that could work.
Frank:but yeah, he talks about when Helen Keller wrote a book and it has optimism in it.
Jake:Thank you, that's why I put that there. I knew you'd have our backs.
Noah:How do you think Helen Keller says optimism? Helen Keller, helen Keller.
Jake:Helen Keller. Actually, what just happened? There is a linguistic phenomenon known as harmony. It doesn't matter.
Frank:Why not?
Jake:That H is actually voiceless. So the K which is voiced on the end of the word think runs into the next word, which is Helen. It sounds like that voiced K is actually beginning the next word which makes it sound like Keller. It's consonantal harmony. Oftentimes we break up two consonants like this with a vowel, creating an extra syllable, so that we can hear the difference and add meaning to a word.
Jake:Constantinople, yeah, that's right, it used to be constantinople, but then we added vowels, so, anyway, you know what I think about Tai Lopez is he was very vulnerable by putting that video out there.
Frank:Do you think that? I mean he talked about when he? I mean it wasn't very convincing, but he did talk about when he lived in a mobile home.
Noah:Yeah, that's right, 47,. No, he slept on a couch in a mobile home.
Frank:Oh yeah, you're right.
Noah:That's probably why I didn't feel authentic yeah he could have done that one time.
Frank:He probably did do it one time.
Jake:I did get the impression and this is totally like projection here I got the impression that he didn't want to lie, so he made the things that he said like technically true, bought this Lamborghini, I mean for the day I exchanged money for this Lamborghini, yeah, those types of things.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:There was just a variety of book topics.
Noah:I mean, I really liked that he had a book called the thousand and one books.
Jake:I also like that his read a book a day strategy is to buy 2000 books at a time. I just bought these 2000 books and. I read a book a day, so this is going to last me the next five. How many years is that?
Frank:Six. Yeah, that's a lot. Six years. Anyways, he has $60 million and you don't. Yeah, but can he live with himself, it seems like it. I think so too. I did watch him on a podcast recently, okay, and I was amazed that the podcast was willing to have him on, because there's it's just, it's the iced coffee hour. It's Graham.
Jake:Stephan.
Frank:Yeah, it's a financial. It's usually a financial podcast, but they I think they had him on because he does have a lot of money and they share a lot of stories about that. But yeah, it just struck me as odd because he's kind of a shyster. Yeah, but they also did Grant Cardone recently too.
Jake:Sure.
Frank:Some people think he's kind of shy.
Jake:Well it's. I mean, I definitely feel a tension whenever I watch that stuff. I feel like there's lessons to learn. Like I said, I watched it and I saw, hey, it has these elements that good sales has you. Just, you do want them to be genuine is the problem. Yeah, if I'm giving social proof, social proof exists for a reason. It's supposed to be to show you that my stuff works Right.
Noah:I think the biggest problem I have with any of any of those people, I mean, regardless of who they are, even Hormozzi to a certain extent is that the thing I don't like about it most is it's this, this is the way to do it, which is just not true. I mean, it's yeah, it worked for you and sure it might work for some other people, but it is not the way to do it because everyone's different, everyone has different talents, different interests, and so this idea that I'm going to sell you a system, I think is horrendous.
Frank:Yeah, I agree for me. I also think, like, if you are more prone to like role modeling or something, if you're more prone to respecting authority, then you're like this is the authority on this topic and they're going to give me a system and I don't have to figure it out and figuring it out as stressful or painful for me for some reason then use the system and it works and that's awesome. That's good for someone.
Noah:Yeah, it's not for me at all, I hear you to a certain extent. I mean, if you want, like what Cardone's thing is real estate, right, I think so. So like if you really truly are into real estate and that's what you want to do, then maybe he's the one to listen to. On that, yeah, I've seen videos of Grant Cardone saying real estate's the way. Like you know. That's just not correct. Like it might be the way for a handful of people for sure, but I have zero interest in real estate. Yeah.
Frank:I mean I don't, I don't, I don't. I'm not against real estate, I'm against. I've many times and one time did own rental property. But I've many times considered it and it's a nightmare. Yeah that I'm. I'm not for it, it's just a. It's just problems all the time. But owning like a real estate investment trust share or something where someone else does the management and you just get profit from it, I mean real estate is valuable.
Jake:Well, I think what Noah is saying is it's the rhetoric around like the sales pitch right.
Noah:Yeah, I'm not saying you can't make money doing real estate. That's not my point.
Jake:Whether it's real estate or it's marketing, or it's SEO or whatever it is they're trying to yeah, they.
Noah:They say this is the way I did it, so this is the way to do it. And they say I mean the way you should make money is by doing real estate. That's how you make money, cause that's how I made money, and that I mean this. Maybe they don't say those exact words, cause they do say those exact words, but it's just not accurate. It's just not. Yeah, it's. And for Hormozzi he's great at sales, he's great at putting sale systems into place, very good at it. But to say this is the way for everyone is ridiculous. It's not true.
Jake:I think we've talked about this slightly before, though, like, for me, what it comes down to is some sort of business ethic.
Jake:Ideally and there is no way to adjudicate this, there's no way to do it but ideally what any business is doing is actually adding value to the world, by adding value to individuals for whom my product or service is actually helpful. Now, when I say you know, real estate can make you a lot of money, hopefully what's happening is there's some sort of conscientiousness on the part of the consumer that says, oh, I'm actually interested in that. I've kind of looked into it, let me see what this guy's system can do for me because I'm interested. Unfortunately, there, like I said, there's no way to force that, and so what ends up happening is hey, I as the business, as the provider, have this sales pitch which can actually latch onto the dopamine receptors in your brain and make potentially susceptible people feel like, oh, wait, a second, I can get rich quick. I have the path forward now, and we results in what I think you're pointing at, which is it's kind of disingenuous, it's kind of misleading and it's probably hurting some people and not actually adding value to it.
Noah:And I think this is sort of what makes Grant Cardone like Ty Lopez, it's that. I mean, I think Ty Lopez is probably shadier than Grant Cardone.
Frank:in some ways he doesn't seem to even provide the course of state.
Noah:Right, but but they're just trying to make money off of people and by saying this is the way that you do it. You know you have to go through me, you have to, you have to listen to me, you have to buy things from me.
Frank:Yeah, I don't know anything Like. I do agree with Ty Lopez. I don't know what Grant Cardone says. I think he sells like an accredited investor product that you can buy extremely large properties like in New York City or something.
Noah:We can find out At a small investment $2,500 or something.
Jake:So there was a time a few months ago that I watched a ton of webinars. I was really curious about what the universal qualities of all of them were and essentially just trying to absorb sales information. So I saw three different things with Grant Cardone. One was kind of what you said, but that was more of the upsell, like the path forward was I'm going to teach you how to you know in a real estate investment strategy so that you can make enough money, so that eventually you can actually, you know, be part of my inner circle and do this. He also has like a marketing course and it's like hey, I've got these 19 systems and this one is SEO and this one over here is Google ads and this one is how to use AI to do you know, but it's like this sort of thing. So it seems as though he's really diversifying the markets that he can create a I did this one time and I get paid for it many times sort of product, sure.
Noah:Yes, 10x events, 10x podcast, 10x training, 10x studios.
Jake:Which is really interesting. I find the thing that sort of rubs me in this situation is I'm a billionaire. I'm showing you like how I made my money. I could literally let my money just turn over and make itself right now, but I'm still selling this sort of mass produced product. Something to me doesn't feel right about that. It's like either you're secure in the investments that you have and this is the game you want to play, or like this over here is selling these thousand dollar products over and over again is making you money. I don't know. There's something not being said.
Noah:Yeah, I agree with that, Because if you made your money doing this thing, why are you trying to make your money doing this thing?
Jake:It's just weird. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's simply a diversification of my portfolio, but it does seem to send mixed messages.
Noah:This is where I think, where I feel better about Alex Formosi is that he gives away all of this stuff because he wants to help. Theoretically, this is what he says. He wants to build the companies that he can then invest in.
Frank:Yeah, he has the most brilliant lead flow of any. Like yeah, basically, I'm going to give you every information available and when you can show me that it scales on its own, I'll scale it for you. That's the actual business model of acquisitioncom, which is amazing.
Jake:Yeah, I do think it's brilliant yeah.
Noah:For sure, yeah, um, but anyway, this isn't what we're here to talk about.
Frank:Kind of is now.
Noah:What are we here to talk about? Uh, I thought we were going to talk about vulnerability today.
Frank:Yeah, which of these do you think is most vulnerable? What Ty, Alex or Grant?
Noah:Mmm, I mean, ty feels real vulnerable, you mean most likely to be killed.
Jake:I think susceptible is the way.
Frank:Do you think he should shut it off? That's, this is my only question. Yeah, uh, because I do know. I know someone who's a much smaller creator and he started, like he has a $29, um writing course.
Jake:Mmm.
Frank:But he doesn't need that anymore. He does. He does much larger brand deals now. He doesn't need that income, but tons of people still want it. What's your specific?
Noah:question.
Frank:I don't understand your question. Well, so like, why are you still selling this $1,000 product? That wasn't my thing, yeah, that was Jake's thing. You said you agreed with it. I'm not. I'm asking both of you.
Noah:Well, no, I to meet for a great. I don't know what came first, but I think Grant Cardone's thing, I think the trainings came after his money yeah, if he made his money via real estate and then he created trainings, it feels like if you're making so much money in real estate, then just keep doing the thing you're good at. That's kind of what it feels like to me. I I don't care if Grant Cardone sells things. I'm not going to buy them from him. It doesn't matter to me. Ultimately, I don't care if Tai Lopez tries to sell things, yeah, but I do think when you show evidence that you can do a thing people ask you to to teach them it.
Frank:Sure, I've had that happen in this like area of the world. I recently had someone ask me if I would teach a local business group business automation like a presentation, and I'm like, no, I don't think so, but I'll think about it. But I think that probably happens, especially if you make a ton of money and you have tons of transactions in real estate. People are like can you do a course on this? Sure, because I don't have tons of transactions in business automation. But already people are like this is really cool, can you teach me it?
Noah:Sure.
Jake:I think those are different things, though I mean it like. I think that was actually a really insightful thing you said right, it's sort of the whole add value for free over and over and over, until they ask for something. When they ask for something, then you charge for it, right? It's not quite the same, because I don't know that Grant Cardone was doing that. He was just sort of publicly making money and, in any case, it's a little bit different than I actually built my thing by creating a valuable $30 course and people still find value in it. No, I'm not going to shut it off.
Noah:Yeah, I feel like that's a different thing for sure.
Frank:Yeah, I think he has three products now. That guy and his first product was the $29 thing was just a it was literally like a library of viral posts on social networks.
Jake:Nice.
Frank:That he curated and said here viral posts for you to have examples of. I think that was the $29 thing, yeah, and he's even. I've read his newsletter. He's like I don't even like that this product exists, but people keep wanting it, so I'm not going to stop it. But now he has a writing course and some other crap.
Noah:But yeah, I don't want to. It's a weird thing too.
Jake:Because, like, at that point, you know, the question comes up like, okay, well should? I don't need the money, people want it, it is valuable. Should I just start offering it for free? But then there's this sort of counter argument, which is it wouldn't be as valuable if it was free.
Jake:Like, by putting a price on this, they're investing something psychologically and all of a sudden they want to pay more attention to it, so they're going to get more value out of it. So it's yeah, I mean, it's a weird sort of conundrum there. I say just keep rolling it out for $29, whatever.
Frank:Yeah, I do think education is valuable and I do think it comes with a framework that you know, even if people don't express it, as this is how you do it, like this is the way real estate is the thing. It's a real estate course, so it's the underpinning of the course. Is that this is worth your time? So? But I don't know. I think that's just valuable. I don't buy Tai Lopez's courses personally. You guys want to go in on one See how it goes. No, thank you.
Jake:I would have to listen to the three minute or the two minute video that he recorded on his iPhone with three points.
Noah:I don't have enough money to buy 2000 books.
Frank:So, yeah, yeah, I did like how he had a five minute video to watch his two minute video with three quick points.
Jake:There were. That's the thing. There were some. Really there were some gems in there that he was hitting correctly, so obviously there was enough that worked. That it works no matter what, like that's kind of interesting to me. Actually, that was a terrible video and it worked for him.
Frank:It was in a different era too. I remember watching it and being like this this is interesting. Sure, I didn't purchase anything. I don't even think I watched the two minute video.
Jake:Yeah, but he caught, he caught my attention. He was like what's he going to say? This dude is weird.
Frank:Definitely weird.
Jake:What does he have to say? I?
Noah:can't say that I was interested in anything that he said in that video.
Frank:I mean, I was interested in the entertainment value of talking about Conrad Hilton, who's the founder of Hilton Hotel, and he read a book by Helen Keller where she said optimism.
Noah:I liked that line a lot. I don't think it didn't really make me want to watch his other video in any way. I liked also that he you know, he met a mentor and then he met another mentor, and then he met another mentor.
Jake:Well, he bumped into a mentor.
Noah:Yes, and then another one, and then three more. So he bumped into a bunch of mentors who were all millionaires, by the way.
Jake:Yeah, no, it was interesting. I find myself sort of captivated by those things. First because they actually do capture my attention. Like there is that element of okay, this guy's saying that you know he was born and he found a way to leverage some concept to make money. He doesn't want that I'm interested in that. It actually captures my attention. Then I watch myself be interested in that and I go why, what is going on here? Because you know, there's that part of Jake that's like okay, but he's trying to trick me, he's trying to sell me. Like what's the catch? And then, if I progress through the rest of the video, I'm like wow, he's really undermining his own logos here, like he had authority to begin with. And the longer this video goes on, the less I trust him and the more I think he's completely lying to me.
Frank:Yeah, it's the same for me.
Noah:So what could make you vulnerable enough to trust somebody in that situation to like actually take steps towards purchasing a program or they would have to give me information about how the program itself works.
Jake:Like, if I understand how something works, then I can latch onto it. I don't think I could ever trust a person, but I can trust my own ability to reverse engineer a system and say, okay, I actually understand how A leads to B. And then it would be the question of could I just do it myself? If I understand the system enough, what are the pieces? I don't know, because usually that's what's happening, right, they say here's enough about the system that you trust, that it's going to turn into dollars, but here's what you're missing and here's the value I'm adding and here's actually what you're paying for, right? So, like, for instance, I watched this webinar by Grant Cardone about his webinar system. I thought that was pretty interesting and kind of meta, because he's using the system itself to sell how he did it essentially.
Frank:Did you buy this system?
Jake:No, but I thought it was really interesting because, like, he's actually just saying why it's valuable because you reach this many people or whatever, but because it's sort of a meta display. I'm watching the entire lead funnel because, I took a step into it, and that's what's interesting about it.
Noah:Yeah, I think this is similar but definitely different as well. I'm working on some certificate programs right now for different HROD type things, and I'm going through a learning and development certificate program right now and a big piece of it is how to build learning and development curriculums and, specifically, how to do that digitally. And I'm watching it on a digital platform and I'm seeing them do a lot of the things they're teaching you to do, which is very interesting. But it's cool also because there's some sort of trust signal that it builds, because I'm going, well, they're doing the things they're telling you to do and I'm watching, I've purchased these, I'm watching them, I'm getting value out of it. So there is like a trust signal that like, hey, I'm using the thing that I'm telling you, teaching you, which is interesting.
Jake:Yeah, well, and that's the thing is. Like Everything is so digital right now and, like you said, there's this $29 program in which the work that was done was literally curating videos that other people made. You don't have to have a lot to provide value and it really is valuable. So, like there is this part of me that's like if something ever did resonate to me, I've collected enough information that I could say, ok, I'm going to run and add to a specific avatar on Instagram and YouTube and I could create a 30 minute webinar video that captures email addresses to watch it and I know enough to create some social proof behind it and a false sense of urgency and some sort of scarcity. And I can employ these things because there is some value in creating something once and then being able to just sort of put dollars into a funnel and say all right, keep going to it, yeah.
Jake:The thing that would stop me from doing like the Grant Cardone thing is like I know myself, you know it's like OK, I understand the system, the system really does make money, but am I the type of person who's going to put together a webinar and a course of some kind? Maybe, but on what I don't know. I'm not going to put money into understanding how to do that until I have something of value to put into the world.
Noah:Yeah, I agree completely, and that was the basis of my point earlier, which is not that Cardone probably has plenty of knowledge. I'm not saying that he doesn't. It's the idea that any of these people are selling the solution that bothers me, because none of their solutions are a solution for me. Yeah, and I'm sure that's true for the bulk of the people out there, are you?
Jake:saying that we are a unbecoming platypus instead of the unbecoming platypus. Did I say that? I'm just saying I don't know why we would claim exclusivity on this.
Frank:That's true. He raised a really good point.
Noah:I don't know if you remember the naming process for this. I do. It smelled like fire. We are not the authoritative unbecoming platypus or who didn't really want that name.
Frank:I think that that was the name we picked.
Noah:It is the name we picked, that's true.
Frank:And I think I'll make a course. But what Behavior change? I don't know if it's free, I don't really, but I think I'll make one, yeah.
Jake:Even the process would be valuable to you.
Frank:Yeah, I mean a lot of the process is done, but the but I do think I'll make a course.
Jake:Will you quote James Clear in this course?
Noah:I haven't considered it Will you quote Alex Hermose quoting James Clear.
Frank:I haven't considered that either. I just want people to be able to get all the tools and fallacies and understanding in some sort of path that makes sense, for them To understand where roadblocks might be, to making their behavior be different than what they want Sure, different than what's happening, what has been happening. I think that could be very valuable. So many people just get stuck, and sometimes they their whole life is stuck in a little. I'm going to pull this gambling machine, or I can't stop smoking cigarettes or whatever, and I think there are like 1900 pathways out or so, and if you just take them one by one you'll find the ones that work for you. So it's just a 1900 pathway system, but I don't think they're that hard to. If you get presented in a linear way like does this resonate with you, no, don't use that tool, then to this I go through them all.
Noah:Remember that one podcast where we talked about like negative 1000 layers yeah, positive 1000 layers, and our stuff is very specific Thousands and thousands of solutions and layers and we really break it down.
Frank:Yeah, yeah. But I mean, like one of pathways, like should you find a mentor? Do you value authority? If you do, then you should run down that pathway.
Noah:What do you think the most important thing for behavior chain is? Change is like. What do you think? If there's one thing that you could say like this is the thing that's going to set you down the path.
Frank:Oh sure it's finding a way to reinforce it so that it becomes consistent in your life. Almost anyone can get their behavior to change today for anything, yeah, I mean maybe not today, on a given day. One day you're going to have enough willpower to change your behavior today.
Noah:Sure, I get what you're saying.
Frank:But getting it to become so ingrained in your life that you choose it every time, that you, when tempted with other options, don't pick them, that you know how to do it, that you know how to do it in adversity, that you have all of the components integrated so that it becomes a consistent part of your life is the hard part. But you just work through all the things. It's totally possible.
Noah:I haven't put as much thought into it as you, probably, but I think my answer would be something like knowing the problem, knowing yourself, yeah, which I think leads to the same place, but I think a lot of people don't know what they're trying to change, as funny as that sounds, yeah, that is an important part.
Noah:There's a good I don't think you can reinforce. That's why I think it's hard to reinforce is because they don't always know what they're trying to change, because maybe the habit is smoking, but the change that needs to happen is maybe comforting themselves for anxiety reduction or something like that. Do you know what I mean?
Jake:Yeah, I do. It's interesting because I would say something similar, but I also I wrestle with it a little bit, because you and I have had conversations or we've had conversations on the podcast, and there's always this sort of wrestling between I say something like I need to be mindful of the story that I'm telling myself and I am not the idea. I'm not that I separate myself from it. It starts with mindfulness, and I think you found a lot of value in that as well.
Jake:But you make this sort of case, for it's just about doing it. You just wake up every day and you do it, and I have found a resistance in me to subscribing to that quite yet. I see the potential in it, for sure, but for me it's like okay, you can do it, but on day 31, when it feels a little bit off, unless I really understand why I'm doing it, I won't maybe make that choice to keep doing it. So it doesn't feel as sustainable. And then I see that alternative, which is okay, but if I do it for a long enough period of time, maybe it becomes who I am. So I don't know.
Frank:Yeah, I mean I don't have a course yet, but there are three phases to it. There's decision, action and the thing I just said, basically, which is make it work.
Jake:Yeah, like reinforce it.
Frank:Yeah, make it so that you don't stop doing it, reinforce it, yeah. But they're all important, for sure, but the one I think anyone can be like, even if they didn't make a good decision, that's super intentional, that really understands the problem, you can act in a way that will get you to your goal. And if you can figure out how to continue that, then you know, like some people are not hard work people and I don't think that's the best for them, but it might be the best for them right now.
Frank:Or not what Hard work people Heart.
Frank:Yeah they're not. They don't. There are many people who follow a carnivore diet and they do not consider their emotions a part of the puzzle. They just don't eat anything. It's not meat. They integrated this in their life and it's fine. They still have desire for connection. That's probably still why they, you know, like that is an important part of the puzzle, but for them they got it figured out, so they they didn't do one in the most complete way, I don't think, but they got two and three right and that'll work.
Jake:Hmm.
Noah:Yeah, when can you go a little bit deeper into what you mean by heart work exactly?
Frank:I mean like, what is the behavior you want to change? Why are you doing it? Why is it happening? What is the real thing you're seeking? Hmm, is there a way you can find that somewhere else?
Noah:Yeah, why do you think that someone might not be that into the heart work as you say? I mean, do you think? I guess what I'm really asking is should they be? Is it a vulnerability thing? I really is honestly what I'm asking. I mean because I think, when I think about change in an actual change management setting, sharing information, why, the why is the biggest factor in getting change buy in, and I think it's true individually as well. Yeah, and so even for yourself, going why am I doing this? I think is the most important factor, because if you have a good reason to do it, you'll do it, and I don't think that's the point I was trying to make earlier is I don't think the reason externally is always the real reason.
Frank:No, I agree with you and I think yeah, I mean I guess should I don't love the word should, but I think you should do the heart work, sure, but I think many people succeed at changing their behavior and reaching their goals without it. It's just not the most integrated life and they probably are creating some other problem.
Noah:Right.
Jake:I think that's the hard part for me, and I guess I mean this in an encouraging way. I'm like I'm not trying to disassemble what you're saying, I actually hear it and I think it's like super valuable. But the challenge I would say is, like how can I help Frank like make this? The best thing possible I think that there's a lot of here is the system to achieve a goal, and we've referred to it before in terms of like eat fewer than 20 net carbs a day and you will see results, right. But it's what I've referred to as like the I am not a robot problem. It is okay, I can. I can do that for quite a while.
Jake:But I'm this multifaceted human. It's engaging with my logical faculties, but I have emotional faculties and biological ones as well. And as long as I can super like concentrate on my logical faculties and they and my prefrontal cortex like always wins out, then I'm going to see a lot of success here. But it doesn't account for this holistic human experience. So the challenge I would say for anyone is what I referred to earlier and it's this like how do we, how do we actually add value to people? You know, and it's not just like let me sell the system that that is theoretically valuable and it's like how do we give people the tools that they need to create behavior change? Because even if I'm doing hard work, that doesn't mean that I'm good at behavior change. Definitely I can understand it. It's usually bad.
Frank:They must go hand in hand. I honestly think you can brute force behavior change way easier than doing hard work. But at some point later you're going to crumble apart because you're just brute forcing it and you didn't something about, you didn't believe in it or something.
Jake:Yeah. So what does that look like in a in a course, though? I mean, is it like hey, this course is designed for people who are already engaging in the work but having trouble in implementing it and like applying it in their life?
Noah:Yeah.
Jake:Or is it constantly mentioning during the course hey, this is going to help you change and maybe achieve a measurable goal, but if you want it to be sustainable, you're going to have to do this too.
Frank:Yeah, I think it looks like there are some number of checkboxes and we rank, order them by the ones that feel most valuable to you, and so that's sort of how we pick your pathway, like what you know, maybe there are 1900, I don't know, but we've. They get categories or something, and the ones that feel most useful to you as the first strategies are the ones we start with. So you get three to five and then yeah.
Frank:As you implement those, you feel like they're solid in your life. You move down the list until you're very happy with the way this behavior is going and then you can start over on a new behavior if you want, and you learn the methods by blinding the multiple behaviors and at some point you don't need the course anymore. Yeah, because everyone has different defense mechanisms, everyone has different self-talk, everyone has different views of authority, so they all there are different pathways every person should take, could take that are most optimal for them. Yeah, I think it's something like that.
Jake:Those are. Those are so important in terms of change. Like you know, in coaching I don't think it's specific to that field, but it's like we call them mastery experiences I need to give you a tiny goal so that you can watch yourself achieve victory. Yeah, and that starts to create confidence, and then I can move toward the bigger goals.
Frank:And that's the, the, the mindful eating worksheet thing. That's what that's about. Yeah, that's a hundred percent mastery of personal agency. It doesn't feel like it because you ate the craving. So I think people will initially be like it doesn't seem like the right thing, but you did it in a totally different way. Yeah, and there's like physical evidence that you made choices here. Yeah, it's real. I think it's huge.
Jake:It's one of the first steps toward reducing the moralization of decisions. Right yeah.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, I don't know Lots of little tools like that. I think there's 1900.
Jake:I think this is probably what keeps me from taking steps forward, though it's like I can see. I mean, it's the same thing you've said Noah is like Jake, you're not taking a side. And it's like, yeah, because in one context this thing is true and in this context it's completely false. And it's like it's really hard for me to create that specificity of application and say, hey, I've got a solution for you. You should probably check all these boxes for it to be the solution for you, because I don't want to just throw something out into the world and say, hey, it's on you to understand. If this is right for you, you have to. There's no way I can actually determine that only individuals that are the right applicant for my product are going to purchase it, but there seems to be some responsibility.
Frank:You can on the back end. If you didn't like it, just ask me to go to your refund.
Jake:Yeah, it's a little bit different though. Like I want to make sure that my messaging is actually understood. I want to make sure that the right individual is actually coming to it on the front end, Because what can happen is okay, I didn't like it, I'll give you a refund Great, that's monetary, whatever but if you go into my course thinking that it's going to help you do something sustainably, but it only helps you achieve a goal and then you fall right back off the wagon, this is actually a negative in your life. You are actually reinforcing a self-narrative that I can't stick to, something, that I'm not the type of person who can achieve this. I don't want to put that into the world. Like what I see is, my responsibility is helping people understand the problem and exactly which aspect of it I'm helping them solve, Because I want people to understand themselves better. This is me just thinking out loud.
Frank:I think you just do the best you can. Sure To make sure that doesn't happen. But I do think there's some assumption that it's a net negative, and it may not be, because if you learn something while you hit a rate on failure, that's not a negative.
Jake:Sure. But, Depends on how mindful that person is, though.
Noah:Right, and I think this is where the hard work comes into play, because I really do believe knowing what you want even is super important, like your example of you having a hard time deciding one way or another. I think that maybe it doesn't get eliminated, but gets minimized a lot if you know exactly what you're shooting for.
Jake:Yeah.
Noah:And so there are things that you do in your life that you have made the decision on you do CrossFit. That's your path to fitness. At this point in your life you have, I'm assuming, specific things that you either want to accomplish or maintain, and CrossFit fits that as a solution. And so you've made that decision and that might change If you decide you want something different. Maybe you'll turn into a bodybuilder, or maybe you'll be a powerlifter or whatever. It's not that it can't change, but you know you've done the work, you know what this goal is and now you have a solution for it.
Noah:When you don't know what you want, when you don't know what you're shooting for, then it's like, well, what do I do?
Jake:Yeah, I think. What I'm pointing at, though, is that gap between the conscientious consumer. I know what I want and I know if the product or service that you're offering me aligns with that. So it's the gap between the consumer, whether or not they're conscientious, and the provider, whether or not they have any sort of business ethic or they're just trying to mass market a product and get it out there, and it's like I want to be both. I want to be a conscientious consumer and I want to be a conscientious provider, and I want to understand to some degree what my responsibility as a provider is Like. There is no part of me that could just mass market a product and say this is going to change your life. Even though that's probably the most effective ad messaging, I want to say, hey, this is for the person who is in this place and this is what I can help you do. It's very niche, which sort of limits the reach, but yeah, I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.
Frank:Is there something? So I've always People are like People ask you about it getting a tattoo, and I've always been like there's nothing I believe in enough that I would want to put on my skin.
Frank:But I'm getting close. I don't think I'll get a tattoo, but you're getting close to believing something, to believing something enough that I'll put it on my skin and I think that is the kind of thing that you should do. Like I'm just saying, do what you think is cool, but it gets rid of a lot of the weirdness. I really think it does If you are sold on it, if you're completely believing it. I mean, obviously you can be deluded, like you've talked about before, with religious zealots and stuff, but if you're going to sell something, you probably should believe in it.
Jake:Yeah, I absolutely believe in it. It's, once again, just like limiting the scope of where I believe in it. I think I'm actually saying there is something unethical about marketing a service and saying this is going to change your life, with zero asterisks. I actually think it's more valuable if I say if you're the type of individual who has $5,000 in your bank account and you feel comfortable giving me a thousand of it, and you're willing to invest $3,000 over the next six months and you're willing to put in 30 hours a week to do this thing because you're actually looking for a path forward, this is the program for you and I can show you exactly how to get there. But it's these things. So, with your program, it's hey, I can show you how to do a behavior change, but are you the type of person who's willing to ask questions and deal with uncomfortable answers?
Jake:It's a worse marketing campaign. Oh, yours or mine? I'm saying that putting those caveats on your product is worse. It eliminates people from purchasing your product, but it probably also increases the efficacy of the people who take it. They've sort of answered this survey for themselves and they've said oh, I am that type of person and this is going to be hard. So I think part of ad messaging is to reduce that friction and say this is going to be an easy path. Purchase the thing, click the button, I'm going to get the result.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, this is a challenging area. I don't know that it needs to be all the details upfront.
Frank:It's just me thinking out loud, it's true, like I don't know, the master taming kit is good marketing. You know that's it's a joke to me, but it's also. Does this sound like you? You have a problem. You can't solve it. What's happening? This is the course, right, I think. I think a lot of people not everyone have one to three behaviors that if they were to stop doing them, they could truly change their life. And there's a lot of ways to get there and we talk about them all and we'll help you there. I don't, it's not easy. Yeah, if I say there's 1900 ways, it's clear that it's not easy. I think.
Jake:Well, and to clarify, I'm framing this as a limitation, a self-limiting problem of me, right? Yeah, my problem is I'm wrestling with this ethical question and the result is I never actually put something out into the world. The result is zero people get a positive experience from it. Like I'm framing this as a negative thing, but I'm also saying I think it's a good thing, it's a question that should be talked about more, which is like hey, capitalism great, you know, it's going to do some good in the world. All this stuff.
Jake:A lot of people do have problems with it, though. Let's have a real conversation about it and say is there a way to? If there's such a thing as a conscientious consumer, is there a conscientious provider? And it's a conversation that I don't see happening often. I know it happens, but usually it's because some sort of problem happens and then some oversight committee gets together and says oh, you're actually going to have to put this messaging on your cigarette carton and say this is really bad for you or whatever. How can we be more proactive about that as providers and say I really want you to get the biggest bang for your buck here, but there's some things you should know beforehand? Or how do we use the system to limit the number of people that press purchase on that, expecting one thing and getting another? I don't know.
Frank:I don't know either. I just I think the refund is the best. I don't know I don't really do business with if I have any choice in vendor. I don't do business with vendors that don't have like a free, open refund policy, because I just think that's how it should be. If you didn't like it, just tell me, I'll give you your money back. Sure, I think everyone should do this. It didn't do what you expected, but I know a lot of companies don't do that, but I think it gets rid of a lot of that problem.
Jake:Not the problem I'm talking about. The problem I'm talking about is I expected to do one thing. It does another, but really it's because I didn't know myself enough. Like there wasn't. I thought this was for everybody. It was pitched to me like it was for everybody.
Jake:It was pitched to me, like if I just press this button, I'm going to click the buttons that you told me to in your course and I'm going to be a different person at the end. I wasn't, and now I hate myself. I wasn't, and now I don't believe in myself as much. I wasn't, and now I have this negative narrative about who I am and whether I'm capable or not. This I mean honestly. This is like what I heard whenever Noah first said the thing. My problem with these people is they say this is the way. Um, it might not be what he meant, but it's what I heard. It's like Is there a responsibility on the on the part of that advertiser to say it's gonna work for you? It does work, it's proven to work, but there are some things, there's some caveats. You should know these things. How do we do that responsibly?
Frank:Yeah, I mean I think there are programs that make you sign something less. As you understand you'll do this time commitment and that kind of stuff.
Jake:Yeah, I think that's a good way to do it, like an intake survey or a contract that is not written, to be confusing. I think that's how you create really great value in the world. Yeah that's all.
Frank:This podcast has been very valuable for me personally. I don't know if it's valuable for anyone else who might have listened to it. I just got some different introspection about. Just while we talk through these topics about, I'm trying to formulate what this sort of course thing looks like. Yeah and so just talking through it helped a little.
Jake:Okay, I'm glad.
Frank:Yeah, I have no real idea how to make it something people want to do.
Jake:I think your course is self-limiting in and of itself, like by its nature. Someone doesn't say I'm going to take that behavior change course and I expect it to be easy. Yours has a. I mean it doesn't have a lot of the problems that I said.
Frank:Oh yeah, I'm not worried about the problems. I'm worried. I'm like I've spent a lot of time thinking about the user interface, like how would someone? There's so much information, there's so many fallacies and just all you need is one of them. Really, all you need is one tool that really locks in for you.
Jake:But how?
Frank:do I get that to the top of the list. So it's the first thing you try Like. What do I need to understand about your personality and behaviors and what's motivating them to get the one that's most valuable to the top or close to the top?
Jake:Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a respectable problem to try to solve, like you and I I don't know we said something yesterday where it's like one of the hardest things is whenever you find something that's true and then you change it and then the problem doesn't go away and you go wait a second, was it not that problem? That was definitely a problem. And then you realize, oh wait, it was actually that thing and that thing over there and maybe this thing over here, and it was a multi, multi part problem. But you only realize that by solving the first problem.
Frank:Yeah, yeah. And I mean, if you just could create a world that didn't have any stress, anyone could do any behaviors they wanted. So yeah, that's the variable right, you just get rid of stress. You know, that's the kind of silly stuff you come up with. Or you know it does work. To just eat less than 20 grams of total carbohydrates a day. You will lose weight. Everyone does.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:So just do that every day. It's so easy yeah.
Jake:I challenge anyone to get rid of all the stress in their life and realize how stressful it is not to have stress.
Frank:Is it stressful to not have stress? Yeah, when did you do it?
Jake:A couple of years ago, like, well, I mean, and that obviously isn't, it isn't quite true, obviously I mean, I think it's, it's obvious on its face. But to reduce, to get rid of everything in your life that you think is causing you stress, and exist in that place for a while and to still feel the problem and to experience that sort of cognitive dissonance for a while, and, man, you're going to start looking inside yourself hard and it's going to hurt.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:It's an interesting moment in time.
Frank:I don't know what it could look like to be without stress. It's sort of, as soon as you remove them all, you notice that there's new ones. That's my point.
Jake:I mean when you remove all the stress in your life, there comes this moment in time where you realize, like, potentially, that you were run by trying to solve the problems in your life. That was your purpose, that was your meaning for living. And then you get rid of them and you go why am I here? Yeah, that's, that was my experience anyway. And it makes you look inside, outside, all around, and you go Okay, I got to answer some questions here.
Frank:Yeah well, and I mean it's useful to look at that stuff. For me it was useful in relationships. I Used to be very stressed by relationships and my direct path was just to isolate, like I don't have to, I don't have the relationship stress if I isolate, sure, that's very lonely, and being very lonely is very stressful also. So Like you can alternate between these stresses or you can just learn how to live as an integrated person, yep. So that's, you know, one of the paths you can take.
Frank:All of those are paths you could take. Or you could do the like, repeat one that most people do Not most a lot of people do, which is this relationship doesn't work. I'm going to go find the exact same one again.
Jake:Yeah, hey got to learn that lesson. Yep, I like it. That was an interesting conversation we didn't intend to have, but I liked it a lot. Didn't that come out of? Tai Lopez sounded like something else, probably Tai Bo, tai Bo.
Frank:That's right. We need a producer who can play it back for us. We went.
Jake:It was Tai Bo, which came from Total Gym, which came from Walker, texas Ranger, which was right after Laverne and Shirley.
Noah:Yeah, which came from something else.
Jake:Exactly.
Frank:So make sure you listen next week. If you want to hear what we do with words, then Alright. Thanks for listening everyone. I think we're done right.
Jake:I think so.
Frank:You want to say more stuff no-transcript.