What's up, guys? How's it going? What's?
Frank:happening.
Jake:Did you do your uh, your meditations today?
Noah:We recording.
Frank:All indications are yes.
Jake:Did you do your hedonic resets since last time we talked? Did you do your power poses, your victory stances, your visualizations.
Frank:We didn't talk about much of those things.
Jake:I saw them all in my mind when we talked about uh, you know the things that we talked about. Your gratitude yeah, do you want to? I know Zach isn't on the way, but we could all stand with our hands in the air. You ready? You ready now.
Noah:No, don't think this is going to happen. Do it, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Join us. I think that's funny. I think I quit the podcast.
Frank:We're missing out on true freedom. It's absolutely right, I understand why you can't get it now.
Jake:It was found in in the V. I feel so free. I feel excited.
Frank:I do too. All right, what do you think? Are you lying? What did I say?
Noah:I feel so excited.
Frank:No, I'm so excited, I do feel excited, I do feel excited. What do you think makes us truly happy, noah?
Noah:I think that depends on the person. Okay.
Frank:I like being goofy In this current iteration of this conversation. You are the person.
Noah:I feel like we had this conversation last week.
Frank:I know and I wondered if you had any changes in your perspective since then. I have not All right, so just in case someone didn't listen last week, what makes you truly happy?
Noah:I like freedom, and progress, learning, expansion.
Frank:Yeah, growth, growth.
Noah:I feel like we could come up with more synonyms if you'd like.
Frank:Okay.
Noah:To soar eyes, that thing.
Jake:I love words. Words make me happy.
Frank:Increase expansion, development rise, growing progress, enlargement Do you like enlargement?
Noah:And extension. What about expenditure?
Frank:Outgrowth, outgrowth, swelling. You like swelling?
Noah:Yeah, this one makes you happy. I love swelling.
Jake:Do you see the nouns associated with swelling Lump Wart Interesting? Oh, you're more unique. Wow, I didn't know about the power of thesaurus. I used it all the time. Wow, so powerful.
Frank:Give us this Show is Mushrooming. Raising rising accumulation, addition mushrooming. I got a thumbs up that one.
Jake:I'm not into that.
Frank:You just asked me to log in and I'm out on your website for sure.
Jake:Carbuncle.
Frank:Yeah, all right, so that's a good one.
Jake:Carbuncle.
Frank:Growth, I think.
Jake:Oh yes, what do you?
Frank:think makes us truly happy.
Jake:What makes us truly happy? I think it's probably a cocktail of elements. I think that we are multifaceted individuals and I think that, you know, I am an emotional being, I'm a physical being, I'm a intellectual being and there are probably elements that are sort of like keys for each of those locks that make us happy. So, on the emotional side, I think I probably want social connectedness, I want to feel seen and I want to see others. In the intellectual side, I want to feel challenged and like I'm not just stagnant On the physical side. I want to, in that same sort of way, just be challenged to move, to experience novel experiences, sex and exercise and adventure. It's a lot of that stuff.
Frank:Yeah, I think so too. I think growth and challenge are the actual fulfillment of humans. That's what really is fulfilling, and growth, challenge, contribution. But I think a lot of us are okay enough with just getting our basic human needs met. And so you know, sometimes we don't get past those as long as they're being met, and those are certainty, variety, significance, human connection, contribution and growth. And I think getting those things met is really what people are after when they're seeking happiness. They're after one of those.
Jake:But say those again.
Frank:Certainty, variety. Those are sort of opposite of each other, but everyone needs both. Significance, human connection I don't even like that human connection is called human connection because a lot of people get it without human connection but connection and then contribution and growth, and I think those last two are the most actually fulfilling. But yeah, do you know what all those mean?
Jake:I don't. Do you like to find them? Do you no?
Frank:Do you know what certainty is?
Jake:Yeah, yeah, I think there's a sort of this type of certainty, is a safety. It's like I have food today and I have a source of food tomorrow. I don't have to use all my mental energy wondering if I'm going to eat next week. It's, there's a certainty in that I can rest.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of ways to get it, but it is just some foundational truths about the world. Like you know, people who are hostile or perpetrators of domestic violence also often have a real need for certainty, and that's why it's being expressed. You know you will do. What I say is the real need and come hell, or I want him to make sure it happens. That's certainty.
Jake:Yeah, well, that's. You could push that through the aggressive or pleasure drive framework. You could say, you know, in the one situation I need certainty, so I'm going to control my environment aggressively. On the other side it is I need certainty and so I will put up with whatever shit that person's throwing at me for however many years I need to, because changing is scary.
Frank:Right, yeah, he hurts me, but I know he'll be there. Yeah, also certainty. Yeah.
Jake:I mean, that's sort of one of the proofs that humans do need is that they put up with really terrible situations in order to get it in one form or another.
Frank:Yeah, it's. What salary is? I mean getting a salary from a job. You know it's coming in two weeks, so you'll endure whatever to get it or whatever your pay frequency is, but it's. I don't think people would have salary if they didn't have the human need of certainty. Everyone would just get paid for what they actually add is value, Sure, but people want to know they're going to be okay. So certainty, that's certainty.
Noah:Anything. On the flip side of that is you pay a salary to know that you're going to have the employee. Right yeah.
Frank:Yep, I agree, variety.
Jake:Yeah, that's just it. It's like, hey, in the last episode I talked about this disorder of having an orgasm every just all the time, and it's like at some point.
Noah:If you missed that episode, Jake's okay.
Jake:Yeah.
Noah:He just is always orgasming.
Jake:It's a disorder and you may think you want it, but the problem is that it can actually be, comfortable.
Frank:Go ahead I don't mean to interrupt you when you had it? What?
Jake:My point is that if I live every day let's say I'm a hunter-gatherer and I like that sort of framework, just simply because it takes it down to its base, it's like there's not a lot of complexity in it. It is I'm living in my environment and with my social group. But if I'm a hunter-gatherer and I have my basic needs met I have shelter, I'm certain of it. I have food, I'm certain of it. We live in community and just every day happens over and over again.
Jake:That becomes a little bit monotonous and you start to ask questions like why, why am I here? What are we doing? What is this for? They just pop up and every once in a while, if a jaguar comes and tries to eat your sheep or something like that, it kind of excites things and it says oh yeah, I put up that fence because I needed to, because there are unknowns in the world, and it gives me reason and purpose to do what I'm doing. I need some variety. Yeah, the storm might come and knock my shelter down. I need to be doing these things to maintain it.
Frank:Yeah, this is an area that I need to integrate better, especially in how I see others, but it's also some. I mean, this is the human need that we were talking about when we talked about my bad examples. I love uncertainty and variety. It's a strong need for me, and so I can have the perfectly good example that everyone will follow, or the more obscure one, and I'll tend to like introduce variety, surprise, excitement, just to get that need met. But it's also one that really annoys me and others, because if I'm in a frame of mind where I really want something optimal to happen, like you guys in the podcast getting my example, I'm like we're trying to help people understand this concept and you're talking about chicken sexing, yeah, and it's not helping anyone. So I'm not always that empathetic to people who are seeking this need, but I know there's all kinds of fun. All of these have unhealthy ways to get them, to, which people often do. Yeah.
Jake:But yeah, it's like it's such a need that if I'm not getting it, naturally I'm going to create it. I grew up in a situation where life was financially volatile and that became my baseline. So when I started to get certainty, I got that salary. It started coming in. The certainty was almost uncomfortable. I had to start making self sabotaging decisions financially to give myself the variety that I was used to. That's right.
Frank:Got to do that.
Jake:Absolutely.
Frank:Yeah, I used to do that a lot. I don't know what success looks like. Yeah, it's only the compounding effect of relationship that prevents a lot of those sabotaging decisions for me these days. I'm just like I mean I would love to bring some chaos in the picture here. But these people matter. I love them, I care about them. Let's try to limit the chaos. But yeah, chaos feels super comfortable. I just love it. I mean, it's the reason I was a paramedic. It's I love it. It's one of my favorite of the needs. Yeah.
Jake:I think it's one of my favorite of the needs.
Frank:It is, and I think it's often implicated in like overeating and addiction. It's just I needed a variety in my state Interesting. Okay, need some on some feeling of uncertainty or change or something like that. Yeah.
Noah:Um is there a test where you can take your like your level of these six needs?
Frank:Probably there is. Would you like me to tell you your top two?
Noah:Is that a test? I mean, you can try if you think you know.
Frank:Sure Growth and significance.
Noah:You think significance is one I, when I read significance I thought that's very low for me.
Frank:Interesting why we haven't talked about it yet, but we can talk about it now.
Noah:Because I think significance has been forced on me. It's one of the things that I'm sort of over saturated in.
Jake:So significance here is defined as the need to have meaning, to be special, some sense of pride to be needed. Wanted to have a sense of importance and worthy of love.
Frank:Yeah, I mean I think of your need is sort of a hope for recognition of your greatness. Hmm.
Noah:If there's a recognition, it's less about greatness and more about um ability, which I think are different things. But I don't think that is. I think that's in one specific area. I don't think it's like, uh, I don't think it's a sort of overall defining thing about me, though.
Jake:I think I used to have this a lot more.
Frank:I mean it's important to know about these, that everyone has all six needs. And they're. None of them are bad in any way. They, but often we have one or two that are most sought after by our personality or whatever.
Noah:Yeah. Yeah, I'm not taking it the wrong way or something. I think that I used to need significance like so much.
Jake:This was Jake needs to go save the world, type of thing. If I don't do something that makes a giant impact, I don't matter. That has depleted so much, and I think it's just like through an acknowledgement that, no, I already am significant just by merit of existing. Like it's okay, I don't have to do what I think other people would call significant to be significant. In fact, the best way to achieve significance is to be whatever you are.
Frank:Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't think about this a lot. Significance I think it was important to me when I was younger, for sure. I just really think it's handled by doing what you love, Just doing what you think is cool. Takes care of this. Need Not immediately. You can get significance instantly. Just pull a gun on someone or something. You are the most important thing in their life. But like a lasting sense of significance will come from doing what you love, getting good at it and others finding you helpful. I think Any other comments on significance? No.
Frank:If there was a thing you didn't like about it, what is it?
Noah:Didn't like about it.
Frank:Yeah, like you don't identify with.
Noah:I don't have a massive sense of meaning, meaning special pride, needed, sense of importance. Those things don't make sense to me. A whole lot Wanted and worthy of love, for sure in a relationship we all have that and it's very important to me in my relationship with Amy for sure. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a like overall defining characteristic of myself.
Jake:Have you seen a shift over time, like, would you say, a younger version of Noah wanted these things and now he doesn't, or just never have?
Noah:No, I don't think so.
Frank:Yeah. So the next one's, love and connection, and I think these two are sort of in opposition. In a way, love and connection feels like the universal wholeness, like all the things working together in a be in the game sort of way, not like I deserve to be connected, like I am connected. Significance is like I deserve to be here, or something.
Jake:Yeah, what I'm hearing is something more like significance being an intellectual pursuit and love and connection more of like the being of it.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, and I don't know if it's I like that. They said love and connection here. My note, my other notes, call this human connection, which I think is wrong. Like I do think human connection is the most fulfilling version of this. That's not what I mean, but I think a lot of people use things as proxies for love and connection to get the need met on some level. This is the comfort drive, the pleasure drive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know you could feel connected and loved by food pretty easily.
Jake:Yeah, you can like create a synthetic version of the connection.
Frank:You don't need to be anything to anyone for food to make you feel good, so you don't. You also don't need to be or do anything to receive love from other humans, but a lot of people don't know that. Yeah.
Jake:Right. Is that that's so interesting? It's one of the biggest confusions for my inner child that had to be healed Like. I remember being about three years old and hearing the term unconditional love and it was paired like hand in hand with but you have to be a good boy, but you have to do something to deserve it. And it was this unanswered question in my mind for 30 years of like. How can something be unconditional? But there are conditions. That's the way it was presented to me. Yeah.
Jake:Right, and so it's like. I don't think that's an anomaly, though I think that, whether implicitly or explicitly, many of us receive some sort of message that you have to earn your way to be loved and accepted. For sure, and it takes unlearning it to actually feel it.
Frank:I don't know how you do it. It takes a tons of pattern, interrupts and just like re-experiencing different versions of that reality. But I'm not good at it yet. I do think it helps to practice it with others. Yeah.
Frank:Like give them unconditional love and acceptance. For me, this a lot of times feels like I could do this way better and way less time, but I'm going to let them do it. Yeah, because they're important part of the world and they have an interest in this or whatever. Like in work relationships, I do this a lot and it does sort of foster the idea that others love me if I'm not perfect or significant or greatest or whatever too, I don't know. That's love and connection.
Jake:That goes hand in hand with our vulnerability conversation. Really, it's like all of life is this series of little experiments. You put something into the world, you watch what comes back, and the thing about some of our core beliefs is that we never put something different into the world because we already believe we know what's going to come back. And it actually like what vulnerability is saying there's in the deepest part of me. I believe that if I behave a certain way or put behave a certain way or put myself in this situation, I will be rejected. The only way to prove that wrong is to put myself in that situation and behave this certain way and watch myself be accepted.
Jake:Yeah and I think that's what leads to that sense of love and connection. Is that vulnerability?
Frank:Definitely I Agree, and I think You're even starting to talk about contribution. But oh.
Jake:This is interesting. I didn't realize this. I started by saying I think that we are multifaceted and that Each piece of us has certain needs. This is actually presenting the needs in pairs, and this says needs of the spirit. What were the other?
Frank:There are four needs of the personality needs of a personality.
Jake:Oh, okay, got you. Those were the needs of the personality. This is the needs of the spirit. They're distinguishing for some reason.
Frank:Yeah, I Think the needs of the spirit are the ones that actually fulfill people, like at a higher level you have them. An extraordinary life, not. It doesn't feel Like I'm just getting my needs met when you have these needs met it feels like you're truly flourishing, like a part of you Feels alive or something. But their growth and contribution. They call growth the need for constant emotional, intellectual and spiritual development and Contribution the need to give beyond ourselves, give care, protect and serve others.
Jake:The interesting part of that. This is that I think it implicates or necessitates having the other needs. Without the certainty and the variety and the ability to assimilate those into your life, you won't have growth. Because growth requires putting yourself into a place where there is the unknown, the variety, and Assimilating that certainty and saying when I encounter variety, I have certainty that it will produce a Positive outcome, a net benefit. I'm going to put myself into situations where growth is possible, because I have seen this play out enough times and the same thing would be true with contribution. I am willing to be wholeheartedly myself, to put myself out there and to give away a piece of what I have to offer, because I have seen Myself be connected and loved and I have seen that I do implicitly have significance and that what I have to give has value.
Frank:Yeah, I think so. I think they're. They're hierarchical on some level. I think the the first four are about First four, feel like basic or something.
Jake:Well, it's why, in Maslow's hierarchy of need, you have the, the basic needs of the body, and then you move toward the top of the pyramid, which is sex, self actualization. And I think that's what growth and contribution here.
Frank:Yeah, what the way I think about these is. I know for a fact I'm gonna get my first four needs met, come hell or high water defense mechanism or enabling behavior or helping someone or hurting someone yeah, all humans get those needs met. But you can think how can I get those needs met and meet the need of growth and connection, because they're ultimately fulfilling. And when you think about things in this frame, you find ways that meet the first four needs and the last two.
Noah:Mm-hmm. I think my top two are certainty and growth.
Frank:Yeah oh yeah, I agree, I'm well and.
Noah:I'll tell you why. Yeah, specific to the certainty I the the thing that I, when I do sort of this like shadow work, the thing that always comes back around for me is that I don't have to like I'd Excuse me, that I don't want to feel like I have to do it myself, that I need to be supported by others in Like the responsibility needs to be shared, and so I think in that way, I need certainty. I always feel better. We can take a simple example like at work, I am way happier and way more engaged when I feel like Alex is on board, yeah, like I'm not Having to run the ship fully.
Frank:This makes a lot of sense.
Noah:I think that certainty is what I need. You're right. Yeah, it's not significance. Yeah, so I don't really identify that with the significance almost at all.
Frank:Yeah, I just misunderstood it. I agree with you.
Noah:Yeah, I Certainly I have some need for significance, like you said. We all have them, but that when I read that, it just doesn't.
Frank:Yeah, often certain doesn't resonate significance. Feels like I will be in control, but that can also just be certainty, like I need certainty, so I'm.
Noah:Yeah, I don't like the word control because, again, I've said this a billion times but I don't need to be in control, I don't want to be controlled. That, which is a very significant difference specific to an eight, that's very important, and so I I just want to clarify that, that's all.
Frank:I Agree, I didn't know what you mean. I also think it's important to note the word control is in the definition of certainty. Sure but it's it's the need for control, not the need to own the control, just to understand what's happening. I think be clear what's certainly going to happen in that framework.
Jake:Looking at my own life, I have something very similar and we talked about it a few weeks back and it was this idea that I have so often been almost forced into a situation of leadership that that has become something that I've actively avoided Because it made me feel like a victim, to be placed in a position where I had to be the one in charge, and so I also look for those opportunities where I don't have to be the one in control, like I'm happy to put forth a ton of effort I'm happy to put in a ridiculous amount of work, but I don't want to be the one who's In charge now.
Jake:What's really interesting, though, is that the growth element Requires me to choose sometimes to be in charge no longer, to Assign that meaning of I'm a victim. This is, this is a indication that I don't have agency anymore, but to say I Am actively in control of my own life, and part of that freedom means choosing to be in the situations that I have Historically been forced to do, but this time it's intentional, in this time it's meaningful, and that's one of the weird parts about growth.
Frank:Yeah, I mean growth is. I think growth and contribution are the weirdest, yeah, and most individual things possible, so they're really hard to define. That's why they have these weird like everything meanings, but figuring out which one or both Line up with meeting your core needs and doing it is what I'm. My whole point was that getting your basic needs met and finding a way that Meets the needs of your spirit as well. Mm-hmm is what I think happiness, true happiness, comes from.
Jake:You asked this question in the group chat. You said on a scale of one to ten, how much do you have feel like Life just keeps getting better? Yeah, I Answered ten, like without a question, and it was really because of. This is like I Feel, like I am constantly going after emotional, intellectual and spiritual development and I'm constantly being rewarded by it. And it was that thing I said earlier which was like or maybe it was the last episode where I said you have to put yourself in the environments to hurt, to transform. So, like now, I see every Bad situation that I find myself in quote-unquote bad and I see it as an opportunity and it's If my definition of life just keeps getting better and better was there are only ever positive experiences. I put my Sense of well-being out of five, but it's at a ten because now I have that perspective that says even those terrible feeling moments in that moment I know are Developing me, are helping me grow right.
Frank:Yeah, yeah. So that's. That was my Sort of what I think and that, and they talk about that in the Yale course in many ways, but I think what is this Yale course? The Science of well-being. Oh nice.
Frank:It's like an eight week. It's on Coursera, it's free. I took it a long time ago. I've taken it three times I think, but Really really good reminders of all these things. But in the research they find Some things that actually reflect happiness, like in the data. Yeah and using, like, via strength finder, whatever strengths in your job, using the things in your top five on strength finder or whatever Way more valuable for happiness than how much money you make? The correlations direct.
Jake:Yeah, well, I was. I was just looking at this list things that actually make us happy and I saw this item called time affluence and I almost wondered if that was similar to what you were calling freedom earlier Time affluence. You value time more than money. You value the freedom yeah for sure with that time.
Frank:Well, that's why I asked the question. I asked because I wondered if it was strictly that I Don't think it's strictly that, like I said, it's I.
Noah:There's got to be a definition that I would not Agree to work for you eight hours a week without knowing what that entailed. Yeah, so I mean there's I don't know, I'm just guessing. There's lots of things that would go into that, things like Values and ethics, and Right, you know I would have you prostituting yourself and well, right, but I'm just saying like agreeing without knowing what you're doing, right there's, that doesn't feel like freedom.
Frank:Yeah, do you think I could make a lot of money prostituting you?
Noah:I'm sure yeah.
Frank:Yeah, I well. And there's that Like time value of your money thing we did in the past which helps I mean, I do that a worthwhile too but that helps me Identify areas where time affluence will be more valuable than money affluence and I think that's really valuable exercise, like for mowing, for example, for me, I mean, that's like a direct result of doing that exercise. I just I don't even hate mowing, but I hate the process of making sure the blades are sharp, making sure there's gas, making sure that I have the right shoes or whatever, and then cleaning all these things in my body from mowing Versus paying someone $30. It's, there are things that I would much rather do with my time and they might even be outside, go take a hike.
Frank:You still have to clean your shoes, you're still in a shower after you still have to do all the same amount of time, but it's just much more enjoyable. Sure, I think time affluence versus money is important. They mentioned flow in a job that's I Don't know that one's huge for me. If I get into work where I lose myself for hours, I don't need any money really. You just let me keep doing this Sincerely.
Jake:Yeah, that was my entire last week and I mean, I came out of every day feeling Utterly drained and exhausted, but I also felt great about it. I was excited to get into it. I also felt great about it. I was excited to go into each day and, like that feeling of exhaustion was to me a result of Productively creating all day long. It was fantastic.
Frank:Yeah, do you get in flow states at work? Not really. No, you get in them in like personal endeavors, learning and stuff.
Noah:Yeah, I mean the things that I do for fun. Yeah, I mean I this is an exaggeration I'm always learning. I do enjoy that, like I am taking. I've completed two certificates recently. I'm working on a third. I did a Tefal certificate a while back for fun. I don't know if I'll teach English or not, but I did it because it's enjoyable. I'm learning Spanish every single day. Okay, that feels like freedom to me. When I'm stuck at work having to do particular things, that, for an outcome, doesn't feel like freedom to me. Yeah.
Frank:Do you have? Do you have memories of things where you like lost hours of time working on something? No, you like look up and you're like, oh wow, it's 4pm.
Jake:No man, that's music for me.
Noah:Yeah, I mean I things that I've enjoyed in my life music, sports, exercise, like if you look at the bottom four on that list there, time affluence versus greater than money, mindfulness via meditation, exercising good sleep those are very high on my list. I do all of those.
Frank:Yeah.
Noah:Growth mindset over fixed mindset high on my list.
Frank:Yeah, the flow state thing is for me probably the. So you guys probably remember the workflow monster thing. That was 100% flow and that's why it was so enjoyable. It was a nothing idea that I just was having fun with and that was a flow thing. I mean, it's only a nothing idea and that it's not real. Yeah.
Frank:But all the things I put in place, putting it together, it was just a flow thing for me and it's a joke. But it's also not a joke on some level, yeah, because it has meaning to me, but those sort of things are. If you can get in a flow state and have that be your job, I don't know, there's like maybe nothing that creates greater happiness. And the place I think is most important to say this is like when you are in a job and part of your work is this and there are other parts that aren't. I think it's probably important to tell your boss yeah, okay, I should be doing more of this stuff because it's just flow for me. And when you make me get on zoom meetings with those people, I want to leave here. Yeah, so maybe we can get someone who likes zoom meetings to do the zoom meetings, and I'd like to do the flow work, and then you can get like this fulfilling experience every day, all day.
Jake:That was one of the coolest moments for me when I went with my boss to this sort of scaling endeavor.
Jake:We worked with a consultant to help us scale our company and they asked us some questions about like who we were, what our goals were, why we did what we did, and these were questions that he and I hadn't really like explicitly discussed and we had a lot of different answers. And then we got to this question of like why, and both of us had like why do you want to grow? Why do you want to have this many employees, whatever? And it was like because I want to empower people to do what makes them light up. Like because I want to help people uncover where their strengths are and see them do that every single day. Like it's hard for me to get behind building a business just to make money there are so many ways to make money, whatever but if I look at it as an actual vehicle for making the world a better place by, like, engaging and empowering individuals, oh, I'll get up every single day with a big old smile on my face and do that.
Frank:Yeah, yeah. Well, I talked to a coworker a new coworker recently, who we worked for the same company in the past like totally different divisions, but had both worked in this sort of private revenue-driven business, and she was just sharing how exciting it is to like be a part of a team with a mission that isn't driven around revenue. Yeah, and I agree.
Frank:And it was a. It was actually a hard, really hard decision to make that switch in my life because of I was like set. I mean I could have worked where I worked forever, with increasing salary constantly, but it was not fulfilling and I was frequently having to let people go or lay people off or make cuts that didn't make sense just to make money. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. These are finding your strengths in your work. Like finding work to let you use your strengths is going to create flow states, and flow states are really powerful for happiness, for sure. Yeah, we talked about growth mindset a lot. I think Should we talk about it more.
Jake:I mean we didn't really talk about what the yeah. I mean we talked about growth, yeah, but the mindset, I think, is huge. The biggest thing about, or the biggest distinction between, a growth mindset and a fixed mindset and how it equates to actual overall happiness, is that if someone, whether tactfully or not tactfully tells me that I'm doing something wrong or I could be doing something better, I have two opportunities. I have two potential ways to take that. One is I have an opportunity for growth and I don't do everything perfectly and never will, and so this shouldn't even come as a shock to me and I can just flow with it and see it as this great thing. Or I can say, no, I'm doing it right, I designed this. My ego gets involved. I start to feel attacked and I start to feel like the world is happening to me and like this is unjust and all this stuff, and like that to me, that emotional distinction, like if I just choose to see it as an opportunity for growth, I am just immeasurably happier.
Frank:Yeah, I think of it as like identity. Basically this is how it's like a tendency to respond. Often a fixed mindset really is just a defense mechanism that someone built up to shut themselves down so they don't have to hurt as bad. So when someone says you're not good at basketball, they say, oh, you're right, and they move on with their lives. This is a fixed mindset. Or the alternative will be growth mindset, where you say I'm the kind of person who always finds a way, so I'm going to show up more for practice or whatever.
Frank:That's how I think of growth mindset. Like you believe you can grow, that you're not defined by all the constraints.
Jake:Yeah, that's interesting. It's the same dynamic, but we do see it from two different perspectives. My default is no, I'm already good. I'm already the best I can be. I'm doing great. Don't tell me I'm not Okay. No, I don't believe I'm good, and you told me I'm not, so I'm not going to keep trying.
Frank:Yeah, well, those are both just different dynamics of fixed mindsets. Whatever it is, I mean, it could be nothing about good or bad, it could just be no, I don't cook. Yeah, you know, like someone's like, can you make dinner? I don't cook. I saw it. Well, if it would make you happy. I'd like to cook. That's the growth mindset You're like. I'll learn now.
Noah:Growth mindset is the number one, like neuroleadership institute, which is they do leadership development. From a neuroscientific standpoint, growth mindset is the single biggest thing they teach. But I would say, which is just meaning they think that's the most important thing, period. But I would say that it's more than just a willingness to grow to say no, I can't do this.
Jake:It's a desire to oh yeah, like there's yeah. It's not just like an acknowledgement that there is potential for more, it's like no. I actually want to stretch myself and make it better. Yeah.
Frank:Yeah. I think that's missing from. I will always find a way. I'm the kind of person who always finds a way, like as an identity, definition of growth mindset.
Noah:Well, I was thinking on the opposite, on the fixed mindset piece. It was sort of the both the way that you described it it seemed very defeatist and that to me it shows a lack of desire and on the flip side of that would be a desire to do that. So I'm not saying that your definition of a growth mindset necessarily removes that, but I do think the definition of a fixed mindset left that piece out of it. I think it's very noticeably absent there where, where you say I can't do this, there's there's a lack of desire to attack it or to overcome it.
Frank:Yeah, are you saying that like a fixed mindset? Might be, might even be. I don't care there are ways to do it, but I don't care. I even recognize that there are ways I could grow, but I don't want to, for sure.
Jake:I saw an interview with Brie Larson recently Was that it was great.
Jake:It was an amazing interview. I'm quoting it right now no, she said something like I think that she had recently learned how to dance for a role that she was doing or something. Did she show that Not in this interview? And she said something like. She said something like I am so incredibly comfortable with failure. Like, think about it, I'm an actor. Every single scene that you've ever seen me act in I filmed that nine times. They chose one of the nine. Like, most of what I do doesn't get used is not, by definition, a success. This is something I'm very comfortable with.
Jake:When I get the opportunity as a full grown adult, to put myself in a situation to learn something like dance that I've never done before. It's uncomfortable, I'm clumsy, I don't know how to move. It is like being a toddler learning how to walk, and it's great because it teaches me so much about myself. And one of the things that I think when I put myself in that situation, thinking about the first time I ever played guitar as a 15 year old, it felt like that guitar neck was 10 feet long. There's no way a person with arms my size could ever play guitar. This is impossible and but you learn something about yourself right. You learn about persistence. You learn that if you just practice, it will get better. Putting yourself in those situations where you have the opportunity to grow is always uncomfortable and always valuable.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, I think it's the unfortunate reality that many people have never tried something difficult long enough to know what happens when you try something difficult long enough to get good at it. Yeah, that's sort of sad. Yeah, in all the ways that it could be Any other. That's it right. That's growth mindset. Yeah. Practicing kindness, do you do this?
Jake:Not intentionally. I would like to think that I'm a kind person and sometimes I'll go out of my way to do it. It's just sort of I don't know it's a characteristic of me. I think it's part of the novelty seeking thing I like to if I'm out in public or whatever, just doing kind like overly kind things, get people engaged.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:Love it.
Frank:It's something that's super valuable that I don't do enough of, but I have recently sort of adjusted my gratitude practice to include a recent. I just sort of make sure I think about a recent act of kindness as something to be grateful for in myself and I try to plan a new one as well at that same time, each day. That's cool. It's pretty cool, it's pretty good to be a part like for me anyways, it's like really easy access to contribution. Sure.
Frank:Just to be kind, Especially this sort of kindness that is needed. You know you can be kind. I can buy a wealthy person in front of me at Starbucks coffee. Yeah. Or buying me, or whatever the trend is.
Jake:What's the thing it's behind? Yeah, considering they've already paid for the bill.
Frank:Just throw money at the person. I said take it, yeah, but that's not contributing. Yeah, good for you if that trick works. I think it doesn't do anything for me. I've done it, sure, but I don't know really helping someone who needs it. It's pretty good Social connection.
Noah:I think there's something when we were talking about growth mindset. This is a there's a change management book that I read several years ago and I remember sending Jake a quote out of this book and it was in that area, talking about growth mindset. And I think this is sort of sort of encapsulate what growth mindset means and how it makes us equip for whatever the challenge might be. And so I knew I had a picture of it somewhere and I went and looked for it and it's by a guy named Eric Hoffer and it says in times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. And I think that's the important piece is that the world is constantly changing, and so the growth mindset is somebody who's is equipping themselves to be able to adapt to a challenge they don't even know is coming yet Tell me the quote again.
Noah:In times of change. Learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves in a beautiful themselves, beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists. So, people who rest on what they already know, when, instead of growing to learn more, they are equipped to deal with things in the past that no longer exists, those challenges are gone. The people who are constantly learning, growing, those people are equipping themselves to deal with things that are coming, that they don't know exist yet, and that's the difference between those two mindsets. I like it. I like that a lot.
Noah:So being complacent just keeps you in the past, essentially Right. It equips you to deal with things that have already happened. It's reactionary.
Frank:Yeah, I like that. That makes sense to me, I think. Did you have any comments on kindness? No, I just don't do it. Is that true?
Noah:I was kidding.
Frank:I know, do you?
Noah:do it, like Jake said, not intentionally, but I try to be kind to people, yeah.
Frank:Yeah, it's a pretty good one that actually makes us happy. That you don't think of or doesn't naturally occur when people think they're unhappy. It's not, they don't usually go oh man, if I were kinder but it does work.
Jake:Well, it's one of these things that's really interesting about being a human person is that you can live your life and not really questioning this belief that in general, humans are good or in general humans are bad or in general humans are selfish or in general they're loving. But when you put an act of kindness or love out into the world, you model for yourself what humans are and you encounter and engage the world differently. After that, you are like. You have within you the ability to believe good in the world. Just watch yourself do it.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, I don't. This is, I mean, I like Tony Robbins a lot, but a core part of his story. And why he chose the path he chose in his life is because someone he has a memory of, like his parents, fighting Maybe it's a stepdad, I don't know. He had the five dads or something as a child, but they were fighting and someone knocked on the door and brought them. They were like poor, they've been poor to road and brought Thanksgiving dinner to them and that and I guess his dad had basically told the guy to have for something and he was like, dude, don't. The dude at the door was like don't, let your ego be the reason that your family doesn't need Thanksgiving dinner and forced them to take the food. And it was transformational because I realized that strangers care. I think it's like you can find it in others, you can find it in yourself, but strangers can care. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. That's practicing kindness is a pretty good one.
Jake:Yeah, completely.
Frank:Social connection. Do you have any experiences of this making? You happy oh yeah, 100%.
Jake:I love social connection. I get out quite often. It's one of the things that I've done almost compulsively in my life when I'm feeling sad is to go out in public and just engage somebody in a conversation. Like if it's not immediately available in my environment, I'll go out and find it. But it's still something that it just seems true in life that when you're feeling depressed you will isolate. When you don't do that, when you force yourself to get out of bed, go out, see someone smiling, make a joke, laugh, whatever the opposite happens.
Frank:Do you talk about being depressed when you go out? If you're depressed, Not usually.
Jake:Yeah, I mean, if it comes up I wouldn't stray away from it.
Frank:But Right, you just build in rapport whatever happens, happens, kind of thing.
Jake:Yeah, exactly yeah, just like hey, how's your day going, you know, whatever. It's sort of that like smiling first thing in the morning when you wake up, thing, when you're engaging with a stranger. It's like medicine. It can have the opposite effect as well If they're not responsive to it.
Frank:Sure sure, yeah, when I call my sister, it's the most. There aren't very many people who can just draw me into a real live interaction where I don't care about anything. I mean there's no need, I don't try it, there's no controlling it, there's no desiring for some outcome, it's just pure connection. It's just talking about whatever. And it's really weird, when I get off the phone, how happy it makes me, so much so that when I'm sad it's one of the things I do. That's cool.
Frank:But I think I mean I have integrated more of that type of connection in other relationships for sure. But true, just connection is pretty cool what you know about it. It's okay. Thank you for that Fine.
Noah:I'm far more drained by human beings now than I was when I was younger. Which doesn't mean I don't need connection, but it is not. I don't think of it as making me happy.
Frank:Yeah, I don't know, but I think I don't know if it's true. For you that's what I mean, but for me it's a sort of I was super energized by them. Then for many years I was very de-energized by them and now I'm becoming more and more energized by people again. So I don't know exactly why that was the trajectory, but maybe it'll come around.
Jake:Yeah, I think there was a time whenever I sought connection almost at all costs and I would put myself in environments where I felt like I should be experiencing connection, and it had the opposite effect, because I'd go to a bar or something and I try to have a conversation with the people there. Those people were depressed, they had no interest in growth. We were not part of the same community, and I'm not moralizing one or the other. We were different, that's all it is. There does seem to be a distinction between just connecting with another human or engaging with another human and actually connecting. I would say that's the difference engaging and connecting. So I wouldn't confuse social connection with just being around other humans. I think it can absolutely drain you and it can make you feel like, oh my God, is there even a point to this? I will never be up like them. It just seems so easy for them to do this. Yeah, because they're doing what's easy for them.
Jake:If you find the right community, you will feel it too, and I guess that's the encouragement is don't stop. If it doesn't work at first, it's because you haven't found your people yet. There are, you know, and this is a different conversation than the one we just had. Right, it's not just calling up your sister. My point is, if you're looking for some sort of consistency in social connection, maybe you move to a city you haven't lived in for a while. Whatever it is, it's like find your people, find a place where you can be you and they can be them, and you go. Oh, there's something lighting up in here. You'll feel it.
Frank:Yeah, I agree with that, and countered a little bit because I think you can build rapport and connection with just about anyone. If you have the right mindset about it, you can build rapport. So I think everyone has had a conversation where you're like dentist drill level, interested in whatever this person's saying to you, and then at the end of the conversation they're like, oh yeah, and I fly helicopters and you're like what, Tell me about that? Yeah.
Frank:But we got to leave. We'll talk about it next time or something you know like. If you would have started with the rapport building, then you would make a connection, and connection you know the sense that this person is like me on some level doesn't have to be complete, just anything. Yeah, and everyone is alike on some level, so you can find rapport, but anyways, it's good and you should find your people. I agree with that, because it sucks to be isolated in your friend group. Yeah, mindfulness we talk about all the time. If you don't know what that is yet, just go listen to different episode. Yeah, makes you happy though, does it Absolutely Well happy.
Jake:That's an interesting one.
Noah:I think it removes barriers. I don't necessarily know if mindfulness makes you happy, like actively makes you happy, but I think it removes barriers to happiness.
Frank:Yeah, it lets me notice what is going on and how much control over that I have for me internally, mentally, or whatever. Yeah. So then I can switch my focus to something that will make me happy. Right. Right Like growth and contribution.
Jake:Yeah, for me it's similar. It lets me know in what ways am I responding, or rather reacting to my environment, based on some sort of compulsive, obsessive defensive mechanism, and it lets me regain agency in my environment and say, no, that's not how I want to respond. I want to do this instead.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, super good agency builder and agency makes you happy for sure. Exercise, you guys exercise at all. Exercise Sometimes. You ever do 5Ks.
Jake:I row them 10K runs. Yeah, I love exercise and I I'm an interesting relationship with exercise. It is a big part of my life now I've been on the unhealthy side, where it was part of my identity and I needed to do certain things or achieve certain goals in order to feel significant, as it were. But that is much less my relationship with exercise. These days and now it's like a celebration of my ability to move and be in the world and an opportunity to it's sort of like a gift I'm giving myself. 40 years from now, I hope to be in a situation where, you know, I'm an active 70 year old.
Frank:Yeah, how does exercising make you happy?
Noah:Well, I think, as an eight, I have a lot of physical energy that I need to expend it's. I guess, if there's a path to happiness, it's stress relief. It's a mindfulness practice. There's lots of other things I like about it. I like the physical benefit, the actual physical benefits too, but I think if it's, if you're going to talk about happiness, it's stress relief and mindfulness.
Frank:Yeah, I think for me it's doing difficult things is probably one of the most sort of satisfying parts of exercise.
Noah:Well, and if you work out regularly, there's no better illustration of progress than adaptation to physical activity.
Frank:Yeah, it's growth for sure, it's a growth inducing. I mean, probably for me it's more about mental. I mean I do experience physical adaptation, for sure, but just a mental growth of. I mean I did four sets of 12 barbell curls last night. I mean, if you would have asked Frank a year ago to do that, it's not even a matter of strength, that's just a lot to get your mind to participate in that many curls. Yeah, you're just like I can't. There's no way I'll just quit, and the practice of doing it anyways 100% Bicep work is the worst, I agree.
Frank:Yeah, it is. Skull crushers aren't much better.
Noah:I could never be a bodybuilder simply because of biceps.
Jake:Is so much pain. It's another one of those ways to model for yourself what you're capable of. You know doing hard things right. I remember my first geez six months doing CrossFit and it could be anything. For anyone it's running, it's lifting weights, it's whatever, but for me it was CrossFit and I remember the jitters of not knowing what that workout was going to be and not knowing if I was going to be able to meet the standard to meet the challenge. That was who I was four years ago. I'm not that person anymore. I don't know what the workout is. Sometimes when I walk into the garage I say what are we doing today? The other day Noah said well, I was thinking we could do yesterday's workout and today's workout back to back and I went all right, let's do it. That's not bragging, that's saying this is a confidence in myself to meet the challenge. Like that's so cool. That's so cool.
Jake:And that is not just in the exercise realm that affects. What are you going to take on at work? What job are you going to apply for? What relationship challenge are you going to actively engage with in your intimate relationships? I can do hard things and I watch myself do it. That's huge.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, that looks different for different people, Based on your basic human needs that are most important, whether the varieties in there or not, this kind of stuff, but you definitely can do hard things. There was a guy trying to think where I heard it. I think the first person ever told me this was a real human that I knew in Charleston, but it may be famous or something, I don't know. There's a guy who did the quote before him but he was like he's this dude who had been through Russian prison, super wise dude who basically it was on his third life and his one life. But he was like people have access. They're using like 1% of what they're capable of. Even the best people are only using like 1%. He's like I don't know if it's aliens. He's like controlling us or something, but don't you know? Can't you tell that there's so much more in you than what you're doing? And I'm like, yeah, kinda, Do you think so?
Jake:This is a question to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beliefs are weird things. Beliefs are weird things. I grew up thinking that the only thing I was gonna do was to grow up doing what my dad did. He used to be a manager at a grocery store and then he got a huge pay raise to go work at a factory. That's what's available to Jake.
Jake:When I graduated high school, my mom was like all right, what are you gonna do now? First time that question ever happened Are you gonna go to college? For what? What are you talking about? I'm gonna do what everybody else did. Like this. To me, is this contextual. What are we capable of? The first person to run a marathon made everybody else realize that a marathon was possible. The first person to run a sub three hour marathon made everybody go whoa, I didn't know we could do that. And it's like we do this over and over and over as humans and we do it for ourselves and we do it for our species, and the limit is wherever you put it, and some of us have more beliefs to overcome before we can get to the place of feeling limitless, but it's there.
Frank:Yeah, I don't know if anyone has ever achieved the place of limitless. Do you know anyone? You?
Noah:haven't seen the movie.
Frank:Yeah, that was cool. I'd take that drug. Wait what happens to him in the long run.
Noah:I don't know, something bad probably.
Frank:Yeah, I don't want the bad part, but if it was all good I'd take that drug.
Jake:I've never seen anyone achieve truly limitless. I've seen people achieve things that seem superhuman.
Frank:Yeah, and I think often they don't feel like they got there yet. Yeah, you know, does Alex Hermosi think he's a success?
Jake:No, he's probably part of why he's still pushing. I will put a very important caveat on that, though, and that is that it is easy to moralize or put a progress meter on high achievers and say that they are better or doing more, and I disagree with that wholeheartedly, if you know that notion and I'm not even saying you're saying it I just think that the measurement for a life well lived is not productivity, it's not doing something special or something superhuman. I think that it's within all of us to achieve that, and we may, but it looks different for every single person, and for one person, it might be a monk in a monastery that you've never heard the name of and never will hear the name of, and that person is achieving the highest expression of what their beautiful state is, and for Elon Musk, it might be Mars. It's essential, though, that we measure ourselves against ourselves and not against everyone else. We can use them to help us understand what we're capable of, but we're not a failure or a success based on whether we do what they did.
Frank:Definitely. I completely agree. The last one's good sleep. I'll tell you what.
Jake:It's been one of the highest priorities in my life for going on a decade. I don't know why, but I've always prioritized good sleep and I've gone to extreme measures to ensure that I get it.
Frank:Yeah, I find it difficult to get, even when I prioritize it, but I really like it when it works out. Yeah. I think I get eight hours of solid, good sleep. There's just nothing. Nothing can interfere with me that day, but that's hard to come by If I'm stuck in a pattern of bad eating. It's like the place to make sure I fix though, because it's tired, stressed meeting. Choices suck.
Jake:Those things are very synergistic. Noah and I have talked about that. If I'm exercising a lot the previous thing on the list I'm usually eating well because I want to optimize the physical activity. If I'm exercising well and eating well, I'm usually sleeping well. It's the smile thing. It's like do one and the other one start to fall into place and your cares and priorities start to change.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, so make sure you sleep, you will be happy. Okay, I think we talked about all this stuff. What do you guys think?
Jake:I think that we have equipped our listeners with the tools to be happy.
Frank:Are you guys happy?
Jake:Are you happy now?
Noah:Or is it over? Are you, is it over, happy? Is it over? Are you happy?
Frank:Is it over? If it's over, will you be happy?
Jake:Yes, I'm about to go exercise after this, so obvi.
Frank:I am not. I don't think I might. It depends on what's next that I don't know about.
Jake:You want to come work out with us, get some social connection and exercise.
Frank:No, I'm going to get some variety out of what's next that I don't know about.
Jake:Thanks, Dupys Thanks.