Have you ever found humor in the frustration of a 'user busy' signal while making a phone call, or chuckled through the fog of a fever? We've all been there, and it's these shared moments of human absurdity that connect us. This episode meanders through the complexities of modern communication, brushes with illness, and the resilience that sees us through. As we recount our tussles with COVID-19, we uncover the strength in adversity and the bizarre ways life picks up where it dropped us off—slightly changed, perhaps, but with stories to tell.
Navigating the ever-shifting landscape of our inner lives, we scrutinize the delicate balance between letting go and maintaining resilience. I reveal my personal experiences with the tug-of-war between past and present, where releasing old narratives allows us to flourish in the now. We probe into Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy and how 'parts work' can harmonize the inner conflicts that shape our decisions. From the battlefield of anxiety to the peace of breath work, join us as we share strategies that spotlight the transformative power of mindfulness and its role in personal development.
In an intimate conclusion, we reflect on the journey of self-discovery, the courage it takes to confront our fears, and the vulnerability that fosters deeper connections. This episode is an honest look at the trials and triumphs of growth, the excitement that comes from personal transformation, and the importance of being agents of change in our own stories. It's about laughing at our confusions, embracing the discomfort of change, and finding sanity in the sometimes insane task of being truly ourselves. Join us for an episode that celebrates the messiness of being human and the beauty of moving forward, together.
Have you ever found humor in the frustration of a 'user busy' signal while making a phone call, or chuckled through the fog of a fever? We've all been there, and it's these shared moments of human absurdity that connect us. This episode meanders through the complexities of modern communication, brushes with illness, and the resilience that sees us through. As we recount our tussles with COVID-19, we uncover the strength in adversity and the bizarre ways life picks up where it dropped us off—slightly changed, perhaps, but with stories to tell.
Navigating the ever-shifting landscape of our inner lives, we scrutinize the delicate balance between letting go and maintaining resilience. I reveal my personal experiences with the tug-of-war between past and present, where releasing old narratives allows us to flourish in the now. We probe into Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy and how 'parts work' can harmonize the inner conflicts that shape our decisions. From the battlefield of anxiety to the peace of breath work, join us as we share strategies that spotlight the transformative power of mindfulness and its role in personal development.
In an intimate conclusion, we reflect on the journey of self-discovery, the courage it takes to confront our fears, and the vulnerability that fosters deeper connections. This episode is an honest look at the trials and triumphs of growth, the excitement that comes from personal transformation, and the importance of being agents of change in our own stories. It's about laughing at our confusions, embracing the discomfort of change, and finding sanity in the sometimes insane task of being truly ourselves. Join us for an episode that celebrates the messiness of being human and the beauty of moving forward, together.
It feels like summertime outside. Yeah, I'm still riding the wave. Yeah, a couple days ago it was warm. I took the kids to the park yesterday it was not warm, but I pretended like it was warm sometimes you sound like a dad. Yeah, I think I'm embodying it more these days. You know, I'm embracing life as it is. I Find it's a happier way to live.
Frank:Yeah, well, I tried to call you this morning, yeah, a couple times before we got here and it said user busy. Yeah, that's weird ring, just user busy, and I was like, I mean, I saw him, he was running, basically he was busy.
Jake:How does this phone know to tell me no? Is it a heart rate based thing?
Frank:Yeah, I don't know, did she?
Noah:pay your phone bill.
Jake:I did actually very recently.
Frank:User busy.
Jake:Calling me on signal.
Frank:No phone call.
Jake:Well, I'll try to call him.
Frank:See if it's user busy for you.
Jake:That's weird. I don't actually know how to make a phone. I talked on them. I talked on the phone two days ago, like via a real phone call. That's so weird.
Noah:I know you from my phone.
Frank:Have a little way. You don't know my phone number. It's two on seven, five, two, one nine seven, seven. There you are. No, you're editing this and I need you to make sure you know it's you.
Jake:I Need you to note to Frank. I got that out, I'm getting it. My phone likes what?
Noah:Do you have him locked I?
Jake:Don't know what number is it even user busy? Oh, I do have another number. Yeah.
Noah:We should have done this. We should have used our phone. Phone call they oh.
Jake:Oh, like it's called, phone a friend.
Noah:We left? No, because that channel's taken.
Jake:Yeah, I'm using it at the move, jake. Sloan innovation is calling me All right.
Frank:Well, oh Think of the problem, it's me again.
Jake:Well, I'm glad we solved this. I was worried for a minute. I'm glad we we deduced a general zone of problemation. Yeah what's up you resilient motherfuckers? We, uh, we got through co vid together. Remember how last week we were dead? And this week we're alive.
Frank:I didn't ever feel a sense that I had it. Oh, the platypus was two-thirds Govids yeah yeah, don't work out with Jay, you'll get co vid I I thought I got it them the day I work walked into the garage and you were like dead, sick still and working out.
Noah:You didn't exactly walk into the garage.
Frank:No, I know you. I was acutely aware of how symptomatic you were Really like. You have some symptoms going on. I'm gonna stay out here.
Jake:He looks like he has a new loss of smeller taste.
Noah:Yeah, I never lost smell nor taste.
Frank:Oh, you didn't get it, then you're good to go. Oh, science is clear on something.
Noah:Yeah it not on anything really said, two worst parts of it were the muscle soreness and the temperatures that I had to have been in the 300s. I Agree.
Jake:I was like, oh my god, this is the worst fever of my life and I don't own a Thermometer. I used Jessica's At one point and it was guys.
Noah:Well, one time you made fun of me for using her dishwasher but there's a reason I brought over all of my place settings.
Jake:They had to sanitize them. My point is I had they're both.
Frank:Well, I had thatcher.
Jake:The first night I was symptomatic, which was super smart. I took him over To the bus the next morning, so I was already over there and I was like I'm gonna use it.
Noah:Jessica lives at the bus.
Jake:Yeah, she does actually and I was like, oh, she's got a thermometer, I'm gonna use it while I'm there. So Anyway, I used it and guys it was 99.8. Wow, what a fever. 99.8, that's it. Oh yeah, it felt like it had to be so much worse. There was a time I was dying.
Noah:There was a time that I put cold packs on my face. I mean, it was bad. I was like this can't be healthy. Yeah, my body must be dying, I'm gonna melt, yeah, but you didn't what.
Frank:Right, did you melt?
Jake:Parts of me. The biggest thing for me was like the feveriness which just made all of my muscles feel like poison, and then there was also just brain fog. That last Monday, I think, was the last day I had serious brain fog, but it was like a weighted, heated blanket on my brain.
Frank:Yeah, does it feel like a weighted heated blanket in here now?
Jake:No, no, not too bad for me.
Noah:I wouldn't say weighted, but he did. I mean I could tell that there is heat.
Frank:Yeah, and you wish it weren't there a little.
Noah:I'm not uncomfortable yet.
Jake:And when I do I can take off this jacket. Normally, when I walk in here, it's like walking into a wall of heat. Yeah, it's not today, yeah, anyway we survived. Covid, we did two-thirds of us did I.
Noah:I still have congestion trying to leave my head. I wish it would go faster.
Frank:Oh, that's interesting the first time I had COVID, it was like six to nine months.
Jake:I hope it's not like that for you. I've only ever had a headache whenever I had COVID before. It's like a two-day headache, you don't remember that coughing you had for six months. That was an upper respiratory infection. I learned about six weeks after onset Like oh, this is still happening. Frank was like you you really should see a doctor.
Frank:Yeah, I think it was head congestion that sort of made its way down Into the other respiratory system?
Jake:I don't remember the trajectory of this sickness, but you don't track. I remember it started.
Frank:You start tracking your trajectory, man. Yeah, I was her mosey says Trajectory is the key to life. Okay, it probably will, if he hasn't yet.
Jake:All I know is that two years in a row, the second week of the open, I ended up with some sort of congestion issue and I tried to get it out of the way early this year.
Noah:Remember? Do you remember, how all of your friends showed up to watch you fail a open workout?
Jake:Yeah, that hurt my heart.
Noah:We had conversations about it. We were like he's sick, this is camp, it's not miss, can't miss it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. We all showed up to watch you fail.
Frank:It was. I mean, I mean, you work out sick and you did better with no like, no audience. That was the worst performance I've ever seen in roster.
Jake:It was really bad.
Noah:It was so bad a second, wait a minute, wait, no, did you look around in that gym? Oh, on that chair.
Jake:Yeah, excluding all those people. Thanks, noah, that was kind of you.
Noah:I remember watching other people in that gym going.
Jake:What? Noah's eyes are wide right now. It's a look of surprise, shock.
Frank:Yeah, I do remember that actually, so you were above the bar.
Jake:I would say well, yeah, but it was a snatch. I was supposed to be under the bar, that was the problem.
Noah:Yeah, no, specifically it was watching other people in that gym snatch that opened my eyes.
Jake:Yeah, but you know what I'm, I'm pretty resilient. I came back and I hit that work out again. I on the right topic here. There's that topic to of the day.
Frank:I don't know.
Noah:I wonder what our listeners think this topic is supposed to be about, based on Jake's transition, yet no one can know what our topic is until what do you, hey guys call in.
Frank:Callers don't even know when we record.
Noah:This is a high-grade, low-noise microphone cable.
Jake:That's great. You got a reduced capacitance, except for the fact that it's 12 feet too long.
Frank:It low human needs, I think did that get published? Yeah, mm-hmm. So mark edited and ready to publish.
Jake:Noah.
Frank:I'll mark a published story.
Noah:Well, I marked it edited and then you published it, yeah, and then you changed the name of it. Is it which is why you don't know if it's published? Because it doesn't say anything about what the topic is.
Jake:Man, there's some blame shifting here. Is there shift blaming? I blogged about blame shifting, did you?
Noah:know? Oh, it seems like a topic You're goddamn liar.
Frank:Anyways, they're the same topic, but the first half of the topic is the art of letting go. Oh, or the concept of letting go and its impact on personal growth and happiness. Discuss techniques for releasing attachment and embracing change. Okay for me that Feels like resilience, those, that last part that you're supposed to talk about.
Jake:Okay.
Noah:I just had a conversation on Friday with Alejandro about how everything's the same.
Frank:No, no way tell us.
Noah:Yeah, I told them that everything is the same.
Jake:We actually talked about Something, you so short I am, which is how bald I am we always talk about.
Frank:Do you really think it's all the same For the most part? Yeah, what about birthday cake and the fire tetrahedron?
Noah:Well, it wasn't really talking about Things that don't know, but we could probably get there if you really want to. I don't think that would turn into a good pocket. Okay, is that the one where you get the flammability score?
Jake:You don't know the fire tetrahedron is.
Frank:I think that you're adding a tetrahedron. There we go. I'm getting a hint of a tea.
Jake:It's like a hydrant.
Frank:Um yeah, it's the things that are involved in creating fire which you could say is the same as the Sort of recipe for baking cake. Hmm, we talked about the. Love is just saying yes to what is mm-hmm and this like led down a path of like.
Noah:Conversations about presents, hmm, led to. That's really all there is mm-hmm. Yeah, and so yeah in a way, I think they're all the same. I would actually draw a distinction between letting go and resilience.
Jake:But I think that Is a great conversation to have, though, to sort of walk through and define what letting go is and what Resilience may be. So they do go, they couple, they couple nicely. This is a great two-part episode. Well, draw the distinction. Where you're going to have to do a distinction.
Frank:I yeah, so I'll start with.
Jake:I'll start with resilience. I think that resilience, to me, is defined in in this way. That's like you know. I'm walking through. Should I? Should I wait? No, I just my ears were hot.
Frank:Oh yeah, there's no reason for that. We already tested.
Jake:So resilience for me is Defined in. Resilience for me is defined by I am. I'm a person. I go through an experience that sets me off my intended course in some way and it was, it was unexpected, or or something like that and I am able to regroup and Regain some, some blunts of my capacity and go back at my intended target. And go back at my intended target or or even a new target With with the same degree of fervor or was zeal or what have you. I think that letting go is a strategy For helping you be resilient, but I don't think it's the only one. Letting go to me is like. To me is like Removing my identification from the experience, whereas I actually think that we can identify with the experience and we can use it to learn from it, to motivate ourselves, to Restructure the narrative and in some ways that could actually make us more resilient To to what may occur later in life. I agree that's the distinction.
Frank:It would be a probably a better podcast. I disagree.
Jake:I thought you were gonna but I don't fundamentally disagree.
Frank:What do you mean by letting go?
Jake:yeah, what do you mean by letting go? I just said what I mean by letting go.
Frank:Pretty much everything I mean is about meaning.
Jake:Mm-hmm.
Frank:Not the experience sure so I sometimes, when I talk about this stuff, the interlocutor the person who you're talking to or so you would call it right, mm-hmm. Yeah, the other person I'm talking to. Yeah, they've been through trauma. They sometimes have a hard time With this sense of letting go of something very painful or that they suffered for or through, and so I think this distinction is important, because I don't mean to let go of the experience having happened, or that it was painful, or pretend that that didn't happen, or something like that sure but To let go of its like definition on you or something, to let go of that, because that happened.
Jake:You must be this way, or yeah, it creates limiting beliefs, right I?
Frank:Think there's a whole thing called post-traumatic growth that I don't know enough about talk about, but I think it's essentially letting go of this as a negative finding thing.
Jake:Okay, yeah.
Frank:What does letting go mean to know?
Noah:Hmm, being present, sure, but which, which I think is not letting go at all. I think it is just being present.
Frank:Okay what. The question that comes to mind about this is that for me is there feel like there are layers of presence or something there's like we're in this room together right now. There's also presence in my mind. If I had been, you know like, violently assaulted last night and beat up, who would probably be the most salient thing in my mind, but I would also want to be present with you as my friends. So what's like? What is presence? Which thing is it?
Noah:Presence. To quote Roar again, presence is always reciprocal or it's not presence at all, whether that's here in a room with your friends or in your mind. Whichever you're giving reciprocation to is where you're present. And so this idea of letting go for me, if you are truly present, there's nothing to let go of. There's only this moment. That's the only thing that's happening, and if you're not, then you're somewhere else.
Jake:That's an interesting thing, I mean just based on the very definition that you gave, like being somewhere else, is being present in that place as well.
Jake:So and I wouldn't argue with that, that is your present moment.
Jake:This moment happened and I am wherever I am in that moment.
Jake:But if that is the nature of human experience, then we have to draw this distinction between the present that is in some way a fantasy, the present that is in some way colored by the layers of history and symbolism and everything that I'm putting on top of it, and the present that exists outside of all of that symbolism. And to me, I draw this distinction because for so long I've existed in a world where the narrative of the present is telling me that I'm not enough, that I have to do better in order to be accepted in some way. And when I let go, quote unquote, this dynamic is referring to me, saying let go of the layers, let go of the symbolism, let go of my need to understand and interpret the present in a certain way and instead allow it to be whatever it is. So, from a contrast sense, there is the Jake that was holding on to what he thought he needed to survive, and there is the Jake that has let go and allowed the present to be what it is.
Noah:Okay, when you are in that state of mind where you're hanging up on the things that like not being good enough, or where would you say that exists In my mind In the present or in the past?
Jake:It exists in the present moment because I'm actively perpetuating the past in that moment. And that's why I create that distinction, because that action on my part is happening right now and it's my choice in the now to let go of it or, if that starts to become my default state, it's no longer letting go, it's just allowing and being.
Noah:That's the distinction I would draw is that you perpetuating the past is the past. In the moment you let go and you become present is present. That's the distinction I'm drawing.
Jake:Sure, but the thing that you just said is that the present is always reciprocal, and if I'm present is always reciprocal. So if I'm being present with my past history, then you're president of the past. Exactly, and that's the distinction. That is what we have to sort of lay out here to have this conversation. I can exist as a healed and healing individual that, at 90% of the time, is not holding onto that past and perpetuating it, but that's also not 100% of the people that we're talking to either. I existed for most of my life. At this point I'm 33. I existed for probably 30 years completely in a fantasy realm where I was perpetuating the past by projecting it onto my present.
Noah:But would you have called that being present?
Jake:I didn't know what presence was.
Noah:Right, which is sort of my whole point. It's not that we are all always present, it's just that I don't. I mean, we can call it letting go if you want to. I guess that's just terminology, but I don't think there's anything to let go of if you are present.
Jake:Sure, it's sort of like the term waking up. It's like there is this sort of dream like state that I would say everyone goes through Childhood, adolescence. We're developing an identity in this world as a human, as a personality, and then there's that moment when the waking up occurs and you go wait a second, I'm not just all my stories, I'm not just that. I'm so much more than that, and you start to get to know yourself, and so there are probably various personas that I could speak from. If I'm speaking as the 30-year-old me, I'm absolutely letting go, and letting go is a very important thing to be doing. Hopefully, as the 40-year-old me, I'm just talking about being, because I've been practicing that for long enough.
Frank:I have really tried to find a way to connect the thought I have about this with the conversation we're having, and I can yeah. There's a quote from Rick Hansen in his book Resilient that I really like about this topic and the concept of pulling weeds in. It is what I mean by letting go. So I can just tell you guys the quote.
Jake:Okay.
Frank:Which is imagine that your mind is a garden. You can tend to it in three ways Observe it, pull weeds and plant flowers. Being is fundamental, and sometimes that's all you can do. Perhaps something terrible has happened and you can only ride out the storm. But being with the mind is not enough. We must work with it as well. The mind is grounded in the brain, which is a physical system that doesn't change for the better on its own. Weeds don't get pulled and flowers don't get planted simply by washing the garden.
Noah:This is similar to that conversation I had with Alejandro, believe it or not. If you have more thoughts, I don't know if I interrupted you.
Jake:No, you're fine I was just reading the
Noah:quote. My point in that conversation was that if we let the past or future pull us out of the present, if we let that dictate our right now, then we are sort of being dragged along, we're sort of being controlled. Then, if you are able to pull yourself into the present and release the past and the future now, you can do things with intention. This would be the planting flowers thing, but it all centers around being in that present moment. When you're not, you're out of control, and when you are now, you're able to make things occur as opposed to having them happen to you.
Frank:Yeah, I think the only part I don't like is the out of control, because I think, especially in trauma, to choose to re-experience your trauma on some level is in your control. Then it's pulling you out, for sure.
Noah:but to live with it and to really dig into it, I think is in your control and it's a positive we agree, but I just see that particular piece as being present, as opposed to like if I let some shadow piece of me control what's happening with it. Subconsciously, that's being out of control If I choose to try to unpack it and reprogram it. In that sense that's present.
Jake:I'm thinking out loud. I don't have a well formulated thought here, but there's a piece of me that doesn't automatically subscribe to this idea that if you're going through trauma, you just have control over whether you're feeding into it. It's not true. To some degree, you always have that control. Can I ask you I'm so sorry, what do?
Jake:you mean by going through trauma Can actually experiencing it or re-experiencing it, re-experiencing it, when your entire reality has been morphed or reshaped by some traumatic experience. The rules, the physics of the realm where you're existing are limited by your beliefs about what's possible. It is not until you're able to zoom out and gain perspective on that that you realize you have control over the physics. You can turn the gravity on or off. You can fight against this pressure that is trying to pull you out of the present. It's, honestly, the thing that evades me more than anything else, which is like I feel as though I was able to come out of my traumatic re-experiencing. There's no part of me that feels like I can actually take credit for getting the insight that allowed me to find that switch. I feel like life just happened and I happened upon it. I was observant, I was trying to look around, but it took some sort of outside force for me to get that perspective.
Jake:I didn't just choose. What was it? I think it was a series of events. I think it was just chaos in some way that worked on my behalf. On that. Even that, though, take a step back. It's what part of me was interested in beginning the observation process, what part of me was willing to sit with pain in the discomfort and believed that it was worth it. There was something in there that said this is what I should be doing with my time right now. There are other people who are going through pain and need to rewrite their narrative, but for some reason that pressure is more overwhelming. For them, the choice to sit in the discomfort and work with it is much harder. It's like opposing forces.
Noah:I think that might be something worth going back and spending more time with why you wouldn't give yourself any credit. Why would your default be to remove your agency from this thing that you did?
Jake:Not removing agency. I'm removing the piece that was interested to begin with. It's far more based than that. Why do I like the music that I like? Why am I not very interested in sports? These are preferences. I have a preference toward self-development. I have a preference toward sitting in a little bit of pain for later reward. I didn't choose these pieces. I've developed them over time. But that base layer Some people are working with a different set of instruments, a different set of tools it's that piece where I feel like I didn't control the ingredients that make me when I look at the world around and I say you have control right now, buddy, you just have to look at it. Yeah, they technically do, but what's the piece that makes them believe it and feel like it's worthwhile? Because it's not an easy process?
Noah:Yeah, I understand more what you're saying, I guess.
Frank:I know.
Noah:I see it, dill, I still think that we're all enough alike, the people that don't have that drive to tell me these things, or whatever I think they do. Sure, I just think again. I just don't think that they've found enough time to be present to notice. I still understand that we can talk about all of the different variables that maybe led you to that presence to notice, but I don't see you as that. Different from everybody Is what.
Jake:I'm saying, yeah, I know, I know Maybe it's not even worth talking about, maybe the pragmatic approach is just to assume everyone does have this capacity, but there's this empathy. It feels like empathy to me. It's this empathy piece that I'm trying to extend to someone who seems to just be repeating their cycles over and over. I don't want to moralize it. I don't want to say, if you just suck it up and do the work for a second, you'd be able to pull yourself out of this and instead say, well, wait a second, they are not me. They don't have the same ingredients, the same chemical makeup. What are they fighting against? That's different. How can I see them for who they are? We can, because everybody's journey is their own. How do we map this out for them and not just for me?
Frank:Yeah, I think the sort of sad part of what I heard you say for me is that and maybe you didn't mean this, but it felt like you were saying that it wasn't your intuition that got you out, but I think it was.
Jake:Oh, interesting.
Frank:And so if I were you, I would rewrite that narrative.
Jake:I actually feel like I said the exact opposite.
Frank:Okay, good, I mean, the narrative for me is something like it took me years to listen to my intuition about this topic and I think it's similar for you, but it felt like you were saying I don't know what it was, it couldn't have been me.
Jake:So that's my point where does your intuition come from? You don't have control over your intuition. That is some sort of force within you that you don't define. Does everyone have the same intuition?
Frank:I think so, man, it's the closest thing to anything real that exists to you. Maybe you do have control over your intuition.
Noah:This could get super metaphysical, but I don't know that that conversation is worth having because of all the places it could go. But maybe you do have control over your intuition. That's a weird thought for me by connecting to whatever the higher intelligence or whatever you want to call it God higher intelligence.
Frank:Yeah.
Noah:Anything.
Frank:I think we have to have a conversation. I don't know how it goes anywhere anyone want to listen to, but this is all I want to talk about.
Noah:Is there that really good synodminity?
Frank:I hope so. I need to get some. Yeah, go for it.
Jake:Let's jump back in in a second. This is a good place. Intuition, what is it? Is it God?
Noah:Biscuit silk. Biscuit silk.
Jake:Oh.
Noah:Gotcha, I don't remember. Honey and biscuits, I don't remember what we thought.
Jake:it was Vanilla, Komodo or whatever it is. The opposite of vanilla is chocolate.
Noah:What's the opposite of what's the opposite of mint.
Jake:Oh, garlic, what.
Noah:So what's the opposite of mint Garlic? I heard you.
Jake:So I think this, this subject that we were talking about, is really interesting, specifically because in our world I think it's such a scientific world, meaning that at some level of our consciousness, at some level of our identity at this point as people living in the year 2024, there's something that says you have to be able to measure it for it to be real.
Jake:But at a deeply empirical level, what we as humans have been doing is just saying I've observed this thing, let me share my story and I can't measure it. But what if we all have something a little bit in common and we can talk about that thing and it's like oh, I call mine intuition, oh, I call mine God, oh, I call mine this, or whatever? But we start to talk about the characteristics of this part of our human experience and realize we're all talking in some ways about the same thing. So I guess I just wanted to preface this subject with I think that we should feel the freedom to discuss our experience without feeling like it has to align with anything in particular. It's just like this is what Jake experiences, this is what Frank and I experience.
Noah:Well, right, but that's why it's so hard to talk about it Right. It's not really lack of freedom to talk about it. How do I even know that what I'm saying is the same thing that you're feeling?
Jake:Right.
Noah:You know what I mean. But my point about your intuition is that maybe you do have control over that and you tuning into whatever this, wherever intuition comes from. That really was you doing that you tuned into this thing.
Jake:Yeah, but you're saying I tuned into it, not that I controlled it, and I think that's like. My experience of intuition is that it is this before thing. It exists in and of itself, on its own. It's like the will to this is my experience to survive. What is driving me to eat every day and have sex and do these things. There is something that is pushing me in a general direction and that's the same way that intuition feels to me, like it is a voice that exists before any ego or identity and I do have the decision to tune into it, to listen to it. But there are competing sounds. There are the voices of social pressure and role and identity there. There are the voices of biological needs and things there. It's like there are all of these sounds and my choice as the agent is to listen to one or the other or differentiate them.
Frank:That feels very different from what I would consider intuition, which is Okay. And just based on the way you described all of that, probably closer to ego or something for you.
Frank:But all of these, I mean, I think probably there is something before it all, like God, or universal flourishing, or the generative drive, or something that sort of wants everyone to function well together, and you can tap into this for sure. But what I'm talking about is the essence of doing school, which is that if your life circumstances do not match what you, as an agent in the world, want, you can adjust them, and this thing that allows you to notice the difference is intuition.
Jake:The thing that allows you to notice the difference.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:Interesting. Interesting, what I hear is what you're calling the do. What you think is cool To me is the voice of intuition. Intuition isn't this thing, that's other than it. It is. Intuition is that voice, and then there are other voices and it's like volume, and so my agency, almost, is the thing that distinguishes the difference.
Frank:Yeah, it feels different for me. I think almost everyone knows on some level they truly interest what they think is cool and how their life doesn't match up. I think that's intuition. That is like born in you. Agency is action.
Noah:I just see that as desire. Yeah, but I don't think it's intuition, I just think it's desire. We all know what we want, or, deep down, we know what we want. Sometimes we don't acknowledge what we want.
Frank:Yeah, we all can find what we want.
Noah:Right, but I think that's just desire.
Frank:Yeah, you have an action default disposition, so I wouldn't think you would think about action being much different from desire, like you're just going to do what you want. I think that's why things like atomic habits don't resonate with you much, because you're like well, this is what you want, just do the actions and get it. Well, a lot of people don't have that default to action.
Noah:I mean. Even if that's true, I don't know if that changes what I said, though, about it just being desire. Whether or not you follow through with it doesn't change what it is.
Frank:Do you think it's desire and not?
Noah:intuition. Yeah, I just think they're different things. Yeah, what is intuition? I don't know, but I don't think it's that Like. My point is only that I don't think it's to do what you think is cool thing. I think that's just desire.
Frank:No, I don't think so. I think many people have a desire for a million dollars, but very rarely do they also have. This is the same, that being what they think is cool. That's not what they think is cool. They just know that it would make problems go away money-wise.
Noah:We're saying the same thing as far as desire goes in different words, and that is. I also don't think that people desire Like the real desire is not a million dollars, right. I still don't think this is intuition. It might be tuition if it's a million dollars.
Frank:Yeah, I think it would be more helpful if I knew what you felt like intuition was.
Jake:It is interesting. Though I can't think about it, I can separate it. In my model, you know, there is sort of this underlying notion of what I want. Desire is a fine word for it. That desire does feel like the base. It feels like I don't have. It's what I call preference a little bit ago. I don't feel control over what I'm drawn to.
Jake:Intuition, again, probably isn't the thing that notices the difference. You know my social role could be hey, jake, what you really need to do right now is you need to do this job that you kind of hate, to take care of the people that you love. That's your responsibility right now. That's a voice. The other voice is but that's going to kill your soul, like you're going to die a little bit inside if you have to do that job. And intuition is something that says, yeah, I hear both voices and it's that narrative that I just described. It's like this one is a big pressure. You need to do what's responsible, to be a good person, and but it's probably going to kill you a little bit. Like that intuition is telling me the difference and I guess it's not the desire itself.
Frank:Yeah, this just makes me think that this conversation isn't, especially if you're, in this case, like you just drive, where there are these competing pressures inside of you, I think, where it feels like there are parts of you that disagree. I think you have to start with internal family systems until you can get to like a sort of unified but we're describing our experiences right now.
Jake:You know that's some goal to get to. I'm breaking my experience apart and saying that these are things that people can experience and it's yeah. I mean, there is a state in which those things can be aligned. That's great and everything. But if we want to talk about what we're talking about when we say intuition, or what we're talking about when we say desire, there has to be this distinction and so I can say it's possible for my intuition to be different than my desire and therefore they are distinct entities Not that I should be something else that we're trying to develop a shared vocabulary.
Frank:Yeah, I'm actually trying to reach the same goal as you, but I think it would probably be better to talk about my experience with it. That would be great, which I don't know how to do, but I'm going to try.
Jake:I've had times in relationships where I really wanted to get close to someone Because I value that.
Frank:Some part of me really values intimacy and wants connection. It's human need and there's also a lot of people that I think are really interested in that Human need. And there's also another part of me that really wants to distance myself so that I don't get hurt. I feel like for me and I did this I don't mean anything. But for me to say that one of these is intuition and one of these is desire feels to me now like an error. Both of those parts had intuition and desire and they just were not united, they had been harmonized.
Frank:Both of them were trying to protect me from something and they were in opposition. And so when I talk about IFS or parts, I just mean like I don't think those two things are opposite of each other. I think they're just parts, and the parts might have things in opposition to one another. I think to really talk about intuition you have to have all the parts, at least to understand what they are and what they're doing.
Jake:Yeah Well, I mean I disagree that you have to have the parts harmonized to talk about intuition. I think you just talked about it. You said these parts were not harmonized and intuition was the thing that said, if my goal is to be completely safe, then I should really isolate myself, Like intuition says I should do. That. That it's going to help me and protect me. If my goal is to live like a fulfilling and rewarding life and get my human needs met, intuition says you should go this direction. That pretty clearly says what intuition is. When you harmonize those things, though you can, you know, intuition probably says there's a third path, and the third path means I've got some work to do before I take a step in either direction.
Frank:Yeah, or at least some understanding. I mean, I don't know, I'm not an IFS practitioner, I don't know anything about it really. I've done a little bit of it myself, but just the having an interview with that part sort of activity has been super powerful for me to integrate those sort of, especially when my behavior didn't match what I wanted to do Just like what's going on, like why are you what's happening?
Frank:Figuring out what's going on? Yeah, I don't know. I think that most of these are just. I think intuition gets a lot clearer when you integrate parts. That's what I really am trying to say.
Jake:Interesting I so I the reason that I have a hard time agreeing with that is because, in my experience, intuition is also the voice that says you should integrate parts. Like for me. I didn't read something and it said you should interview these different parts of yourself. I did this very intuitively and there was another intuitive part that said you don't want to make decisions in your life based on fear. You want to make decisions in your life based on choosing to move forward. You can deal with the consequences of your actions once you've done it, but what you don't want to do is stay away from something because you were too afraid to play the game. So it was actually intuition that said you need to interview these parts of yourself and see if you have it because you're afraid and, if you do, go the other direction with it. So if intuition is the voice that tells me I should integrate the parts, then how would it be that intuition is clearer once the parts are integrated, Like it feels other to me?
Noah:So no, I know.
Frank:I know.
Jake:Secondly, Like how does I guess what I'm really saying is how does that resonate with your story? Like, does it make you go, oh yeah, I had something like that too, or is it just? That's totally different for me.
Frank:No, I think intuition is like it's like it starts with the basis of your experiences. So if you get abused as a child, you're going to be afraid of everything, and but it's also a real living process. It is you, and so you might notice like I think my fear there didn't help me, and then you're like I should probably interview that part. That's all a part of intuition, I think. And then in time you start to get to this sort of cohesive. I think I've got the parts figured out, I think I know what myself is trying to protect myself from, I understand the defense mechanisms and then an explosion happens. Your whole life gets wrecked and you're like I don't understand any of this and you start to reintegrate it again.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:I think that's the story of being a human.
Jake:I think you're right. It's very weird Cause, like I just saw this picture and it was like you know, we have the generative drive, we have the pleasure drive, we have the aggressive drive, we have, like, for me, you know, that draw toward pleasure or away from pain is so much of it. And so if I look at my life story and I say I started out my life really trying to avoid pain so I didn't play the game right, that's what I essentially just said. I was too afraid to make decisions Well, eventually what happened was me not playing the game led to greater pain than I would have if I had played. So that very same drive that kept me from playing and now is telling me hey, you got to start playing.
Jake:And I think the same would also be true If I drove toward pleasure so many times that ultimately my pleasure was down-regulated because all I was ever doing was getting a dopamine hit. Eventually the system would kick back at me and it would say if you actually want pleasure, you have to stop seeking pleasure so much. It's just intrat. It is a conversation really between our environment and our base disposition, in a way.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, I just don't. I wouldn't discredit. The only thing I wouldn't discredit is the. You are a living part of it and your garden is real and you can pull these and you can plant flowers, and this is you, this intuition thing.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:You can choose to let go. You can choose to assign new meaning, so the thing that you like. There are these parts of you that think like I need to do this to take care of my responsibility and this is gonna be ultimate pain. You can choose to change either of those meanings, you know. You can say like my family isn't important to me, or whatever the people aren't important to me. Or you can say that this isn't thankful. It's everything I want. Yeah, all the puzzle pieces are up to you and this. You can fit them together however you want. That is intuition.
Frank:It's like your drive, it's you, it's all the same though.
Jake:Yeah, it's sort of this question for me. I mean, it's the same thing, it's the same question of consciousness. Really it is does it exist top priority to my experience, or is it informed by my experience? It seems to be both. It seems to be an entity outside of experience itself and also observing that experience and learning from it.
Frank:I used to have great interest in that topic and I find it to be yeah, I don't think you can find out. Maybe that's what I mean to say.
Jake:I think that's what you mean to say you can't, but you.
Frank:Maybe someday you'll find out, I don't know, but it's just like a pursuit of.
Jake:Oh, it's a pursuit of something, yeah, itself it's the camera trying to pan hard enough to the side to see itself, and it can't. Yeah, that will ultimately be where that pursuit goes. The whole point, I think, of starting this conversation, though, was to say you have control, in this moment, over reliving the narrative of your trauma, or pulling yourself back a bit, whatever strategy you choose to use and seeing reality for what it is instead of what you're, in a way, choosing it to be, and there's probably a voice. Call it intuition, call it whatever you want, whatever it is. There's probably a voice that's telling you what is real, what is good for you, what will bring you fulfillment or healing.
Frank:Yeah, I mean, it really does just come down to focus.
Frank:I think and I really like the example because everyone knows what it's like you can pick something in the room and focus on it, and in every moment you also can do this, and I don't mean to discount the fact that sometimes the only thing you can focus on is whatever narrative is in your mind, but sometimes you can focus on something else.
Frank:And so when you can focus on something else and you notice that there is some sense that I have some control Like I did get beat up last night and it's really wrecking my head or whatever. I didn't, but in the story I did, yeah, it's really wrecking me and I keep flashing back to it. But I'm also for a moment here, I feel grateful that I'm with my friends. And then I'm back to the other thing, whatever, and that's planting flowers, and for a moment you can go back and you can pull weeds and you can say how can I avoid that in the future? Yeah, what can I do to protect myself? Did I do something wrong? Like these are, you know, you can dig in the garden and pull weeds and plant flowers, but I think all that just comes from noticing that you can change your focus and then, once you change your focus, you can do whatever you want.
Jake:So let's talk about that, let's talk about cause. I mean, I think at the beginning we said some strategies for letting go of those stories. I'll say that I think the thing that made me first realize that made me first realize it was some breath work that I did Several years ago. I was in a financial situation where we were in debt and it didn't seem like there was any way to get out of it. And I would wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes multiple times a night, and my brain was just running calculations, it was trying to solve a math problem, and my heart rate would be elevated. I was truly living a moment that didn't actually exist. It was a complete figment of my imagination and my body thought it was dying.
Noah:How did it feel?
Jake:It felt like I was dying. It felt like there was actually like a dangerous creature that was about to bite my head off. Right that second.
Noah:And that, I think, is intuition. I see intuition as sort of a valence detector and so that telling you you're having this out of control, out of present thought, that's making you feel like you're dying, and that feeling is intuition, telling you to stop.
Jake:Interesting. That's weird. I would actually say that the feeling like I was dying was 100% an ego experience. It was me thinking that my thoughts were reality instead of actually existing in reality. And it wasn't until this became so painful and happened every single night that I started looking for strategies to get over it. And the first thing I read I think it was like I Googled at two o'clock in the morning. I was like I'm having a panic attack, what do I do? And the first thing was breath work. And when I was focusing on each and every breath, there was just sort of this mantra, which was there is no lion that's about to bite my organs out. That is not real. What is real right now is that my body is laying here in this bed and I'm breathing and I'm safe. And it was the distinction between those two things and seeing it for the first time that allowed me to listen to my intuition, which, to me, was hey, you need to practice more of this. You're getting way too identified with this.
Noah:Give me an opposite example the time where everything was so perfect that it felt right, Sure this morning.
Jake:I mean, I feel amazing. There is nothing wrong in this moment, everything feels fine.
Frank:I think the other thing I can add to any of this is that I think the thing coming up causing panic attack is salaries. That's just like it just keeps erupting into your consciousness. This is just your, all your parts, your ego, your defense mechanisms, just saying like you must pay attention. It's gonna keep arriving in your mind, in your heart, soul, body, whatever.
Frank:Until you pay attention and I don't. I rarely to never have physical breakthrough level Like I noticed those things before they ever become physical. So I don't have a lot of personal experience with that, but I've seen it a lot as a paramedic, where people are like physical breakthrough for panic getting exciting, and I just think it's salience is unmet on some level or so strong that it breaks through to the physical.
Jake:Well, it's funny because my greatest bodily experience I don't have a lot of body experience is anxiety, and I've learned that anxiety is an emotional trigger to make me pay attention to what I'm anxious about, which is that salience, and to do something about it. But anyway, that for me, the breath work is an incredible strategy for breaking through and gaining insight into the fact that I am not the mental narrative that I have. Breath work's been huge.
Frank:Do you think that's sevenly advice Like would that help other sevens probably?
Jake:Yeah, potentially. I think it probably has a lot to do with that, especially with the fact that we experience anxiety in a very present way. If you find yourself experiencing fears or you're trying to solve a problem over and over in a cyclical fashion, the breath work is huge to break apart and gain perspective on whether your thoughts are actually the reality around you.
Noah:I think I just morphed my valence detector into a reality detector. Maybe intuition is just a reality detector and so it feels awful. Your intuition's trying to tell you this is not real. It feels great reality saying this is.
Jake:That's okay. I'm trying to understand that, because what I'm describing in this moment is that all my thoughts are trying to reaffirm the idea that this is real, that you're actually dying, but you're saying the thing that broke through that was intuition.
Noah:I'm saying, the thing that gives you the feeling that everything's awful is intuition telling you this isn't real. And the thing that makes you feel like everything's perfect and I'm safe right now is reality, or is intuition telling you this is real?
Jake:Hmm, okay, yeah, I mean, that's fine. It doesn't really align with my experience, but I can see how that would be possible For me. I believed it was real until I looked externally and I said, what can I do right now? And it was the breathwork itself that I got externally that said, no, actually it's not real. But, maybe that jarring effect of feeling like you're dying is a way for the body to say, hey, this hurts so much it was like a catalyst for you to look for the.
Noah:It's a catalyst. It's a catalyst for you to look for the cure.
Jake:Sure, yeah, this is bad. You have to do something about it. I can see it in that sense. What are some strategies that you guys have used to let go of some cyclical thought or narrative?
Frank:The best one I know, and it took me forever. I've tried all kinds of them, but the best one I know for me, probably for other Enneagram fives as well, is just action bias, and so it is If I find myself withdrawing from a situation or if I find myself needing to understand it, this massive seeking to understand. The best place to do those things, to really understand, is in the game.
Jake:What does that feel like for you? What is the trigger that lets you know oh, I'm doing the thing. I'm thinking about this too much. I mean.
Frank:a lot of times it's like a physical trigger I'm not in the same room anymore as the thing that I'm trying to work with.
Jake:But what makes you realize that, though? Is there something that goes over the top? Or is it, at this point, just kind of a noticing? Like whoa, I haven't been here for a while.
Frank:It hasn't been a while anymore. What did it used to be? Oh, it could be four days of a coding project or something. I wonder if my girlfriend wants me to talk to her anymore. That's not really my experience anymore. Usually it's just I have a real intuition or desire or whatever to sort of live in a beautiful state with balance. So when things feel out of balance, I'm pretty good at noticing it now and sort of responding to it with action. They feel out of balance all the time.
Frank:I don't mean that I'm good at it, but I'm good at noticing it.
Jake:So you take some sort of action. So let's say that you're in the middle of a coding project and you start to notice that you're in your head. What does an action look like for you?
Frank:Well, I don't think being in my head is always bad, but it's certainly bad if I'm withdrawing from something. If I have 14 emails on a topic and I don't really want to engage in that because it's out of control. And it's out of control because it's very complex and all these people aren't going to understand and I'm going to have to talk to everyone, or I could just wait for time to go by or whatever withdraw. Do something different. I'm so busy. I must do something different. That'll work.
Jake:Okay.
Frank:Yeah, If I notice that I'm like, I pick the phone and call the person who is going to be the hardest to deal with.
Jake:Okay.
Frank:Got it and deal with this.
Jake:It's like a head on attack of.
Frank:Yeah, action, because it's going to go away immediately. Very good at explaining things. All the bias is just that I didn't want to have to deal with it, or?
Jake:something. That's a big hill. I'm going to have to get over it.
Frank:Or I notice it's been three days since I worked out or something. Well, that's going to suck. Let's go do it. It's just action. Bias is usually the way out of these sort of traps.
Jake:Got you. Okay, I like that, I like that. Do you have anything?
Noah:I mean, I just tract his mindfulness.
Jake:Yeah, I mean I think that all of us have been. I'm not the same person I was three years ago. I don't think any of us are. I had to pull an example from a few years ago to remember what it was like. I guess my thing is like when you used to be more in cycles, was there some specific practice? Was it developing a meditation practice? What was it that helped you see through?
Noah:Yeah, I don't know if I can point anything. I mean sure, meditation has helped a lot, if I had to point to one thing, but just overall, being like you were talking about being a five for me the big sort of red flag was when I turned into a five. I always have to find that as looking for information to make me feel better or to solve the problem, which I haven't been in that space in a long time but if something was stressing me out and I was just constantly googling like anything to make me feel better about the situation, that's a bad place to be. So mindfulness, in the form of just being instead of looking, is the best thing I can do.
Jake:So let's say that you found yourself in that situation and you're like shit, I've got seven tabs open, I'm googling whatever that looked like for you and you realize it.
Noah:It's just recognition, that is mindfulness Right.
Jake:What would you do in that situation? Was it to walk away from the computer? Was it to? I'm going to go do a meditation right now, like what helped you to dissociate from the cycle that was making you feel like you had to search.
Noah:Yeah, I think it just sort of fell away, kind of cold turkey. Once I realized, once I learned how to be present.
Jake:So it's just. I recognize that I'm in a cycle. Stop, don't go, do something else Just stop it's acceptance. Okay, what's that look like?
Noah:for you, just that this is the this moment is what it is, period. I don't have to fix it, I don't have to change it.
Jake:So what I'm hearing right now, though, is like there's a sense of removing the responsibility from yourself.
Noah:I guess, so I never thought of it as responsibility.
Jake:Okay, you used words like I don't have to fix it, I don't need to do anything right now.
Noah:Sure, yeah, I, but I never thought of it as responsibility. It was trying to make myself feel better. But again I think that is I don't know, I again, I don't think I did anything other than learned how to be present. Once I learned how to be present, I no longer was looking for something in the future or something different to fix it. I just accepted that this is what the moment is.
Jake:Okay, yeah.
Frank:I think I can say more about the action bias, which is that it could because it feels cold and clinical, and that's not what it was. That's not the experience. It is close to my experience now. I just know with certainty that action is the way out.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:So it's not how it came to it. It came to it with, like I mean, the reason I'm withdrawing is because of fear and so finding some psychological safety, experiencing. I even have had times where I just sat with the idea of the phone call and experienced like fear and trembling over a word phone call or something. I'm just like what is it that you're so afraid of here?
Jake:Mm-hmm.
Frank:And so going through that fear, feeling it truly, and then getting the confidence and psychological safety that, like you, are capable of this conversation and having that and doing that experience enough times is certainly part of how you get to the point where you can have an action bias and these things. But sure it's not just like go do it If you can't. You have to do what you think is cool and so what you think is cool. Layer one is like I think it can be cool someday to be able to have this conversation.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:I can't right now, and then I think it's cool today to have the conversation and suck at it. Yeah, yeah, I think it's cool that now I just dive in conversation.
Jake:Mm-hmm.
Frank:You know, it's like a layer.
Jake:Yeah, yeah. As you go through those stages, you transform and you become the person who's going to have the conversation. A lot, yeah, faster, essentially.
Frank:Well, yeah, that's the. I mean, I don't know what it's called. Who cares what it's called? If it's intuition or ego or whatever, there's this thing in you that is neurological. It has myelin on it.
Jake:Mm-hmm.
Frank:And whatever you keep repeating or changing and repeating slightly different is what you are becoming. Yeah, and so if we just keep thinking everyone hates us and re-experiencing this trauma because whatever your parent did hate you or they didn't know how to love you, that's all you keep painting every experience with that's going to suck.
Jake:Mm-hmm.
Frank:And if you can just make a little shift and be like 96% of people do hate me, yeah, but it seems like this person likes me, that's nice.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:You know, and then maybe there's two now yeah.
Jake:Well, it's funny. I mean, like, if I think of a high-level example, it's like I am scared of heights and there's some piece of my subconscious that's like if I go up high, I'm going to fall and I'm going to die. Well, how do I get over that? I go to a high place and I watch myself not die. And then the next day I go to a high place and I watch myself not die. And after I've done that enough times, I'm the type of person who just exists in a high place and I'm like this is okay. It's okay.
Jake:From another, like more personal perspective, I, you know, look at the people in my life that I was vulnerable with and the ways that they took advantage of me, and I went through most of my life feeling like I was going to be tricked into giving way more than I was willing to of myself, because if I let somebody in, they're going to take and take, and take and take.
Jake:And so when I would meet someone else in my life, I wanted to isolate myself, similar to what you were talking about before, and it was. I'm actually looking at my mom right now. When I look at this new person in my life, I'm living history in the past instead of the present moment, and it was for me that decision to say I'm not going to stay away from something because I'm afraid of it. I'm actually going to play the game and I'm going to allow this person to love me. I'm going to go to that high place and I'm going to watch them, not take advantage of me. I'm going to watch myself, not die Like. This is the way that we take our fears and our mental life and we actually create the physical neurological response which is what you're talking about with that myelin. It's like do the thing you're afraid of and watch it not do the thing that you were afraid it would do and you really can change your disposition to the world.
Frank:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the coolest version of this is like whatever, someone triggers something in you and you're just kind of like feeling subsressed. What you just did is kind of reminding me of this horrible thing that happened, and I want to be here with you for that.
Frank:Yeah, you know, and then just talk or whatever. You get so much psychological safety and and you realize how connected we all are and how much shared experience there is. But, man, if you're, that's really scary, and especially if you've never done it. It's just like I'm not telling someone what happened to me. Yeah, yeah. But I don't even know what happened to me. I just know that they said that and it must mean they want to murder me, right, right?
Jake:They said that and I'm afraid, for some reason. I don't think they mean to hurt me, but I feel it, so I guess I should be honest about it. So, yeah, that's good stuff. I mean that everything is the same. It's the same as the vulnerability conversation. If I tell my girlfriend, hey, you're trying to be close to me, this is a bid for closeness and intimacy, and all I feel right now is the fear that you're going to treat me like my mom did. She has the opportunity to say, oh, okay, well, that makes sense. I'm glad that you're not pulling away from me because of something I did and I say, okay, you know, help me reframe this. Help me be the person who can see your actions for what they are in this present moment, as opposed to what I'm afraid that they are from 25 years ago.
Frank:You feel like you're pretty good at that now.
Noah:Yeah, this would be really crazy if you tried to be vulnerable with your girlfriend and she threw you off a high place.
Jake:Come on, we gotta go to a high place. Make sure to do it on the ground level. What were you?
Frank:gonna say though Frank. It's always stretching.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:Even like there's no reason. It's just I'm like, okay, well, I always, any time I see people like intimate couple relationships fighting, they're always fighting about something they're not fighting about. And I've been through it enough that I'm like I try to dig to the real thing.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:As quick as I can.
Jake:Right.
Frank:Because I don't care about the dishes or the trash or whatever, and I don't think the other person does either. But advance, sometimes it's hard to dig into that for real, like because it just seemed like, no matter what, it's always like nah, let's make it about the dishes, yeah. Yeah, I don't feel like. I just am like oh, actually I'm feeling, you know, some memory of being alone as a child. That's what's really going on for me. But man, it's like they're like oh really. Well, I was just feeling like this thing, yeah.
Jake:Well, I think that in an intimate relationship, it 100% takes two people being willing to have that conversation, two people understanding what's really going on. And it does start at the individual level, because you asked if I'm good at it, and I can honestly say I feel like I am now with certain people in certain situations, but it requires me to allow myself to be a human, which is humiliating. It is humiliating to say I was responding to a ghost, but if I allow myself to be a human, with all those flaws, it becomes a whole lot easier to allow the other person to be the same type of human. And if they've done the practice of allowing themselves to be a human, then they can see me too. And so you know, it's just another reason why doing that word for yourself helps you to love other people and helps those people to be loved by you.
Frank:How do you do that? What do you mean? Do it the first time.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:Become a human? Do the practice of being a human?
Jake:It's kind of what this whole conversation is, and by this whole conversation I mean all the conversations. How do you do it? The first time you suck, you allow yourself to try and fail if necessary.
Frank:I'm saying if I'm running along and everybody's saying it seems like you suck, I mean I fear everyone else, how do you switch?
Jake:That's the whole conversation. I don't know, that's my point.
Frank:That's the thing you're saying. How did that happen?
Jake:Yeah, that's the thing I don't feel like I can take credit for.
Frank:What was it? What changed in it? I?
Noah:don't think he's the same as he's ever been, except for the hair. It's delusion, he's delusion.
Jake:Well, I will go back and say it does seem to be the the reciprocity thing. It's a feedback loop.
Noah:Maybe it is the hair.
Jake:Sorry, it became too painful to remain in the state I was in. Yeah, I really dislike pain. So at some point I hit rock bottom. Everybody's rock bottom is different and the feedback loop actually started feeding back on itself. It said the thing you've been doing to avoid pain is causing you pain. You've got to do something different.
Frank:Yeah, I agree. That's why I like Truth so much.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:Because it's direct. You know what I mean by this.
Jake:It means something very big to me, but you say what you mean by it.
Frank:I just mean like that, when we protect each other from the truth, we lengthen the time to wish we might arrest the reciprocity on the reality.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:And so.
Jake:And the biggest thing for me is being honest with myself. If I find myself lying to myself all of a sudden, I feel more isolated than you could ever imagine. I go. I can't even trust that guy. Yeah, no, this isn't good. This isn't good at all. That's like my biggest motivator to be honest with myself is like I don't want to feel like an insane lunatic at 45 years old. I have to be able to trust myself.
Frank:It always feels a little bit like it's a sort of hanging and balance.
Jake:Oh yeah, it's precarious. The distance between sanity and insanity is far smaller than you think it is. It really is.
Frank:Yeah, I don't attach much to it. On the self deception thing I mean I don't have an interest in not being self deceived, but it's sort of weird to have myelin around these neural pathways and be moving through life.
Jake:Hmm.
Frank:Yes, you're like no, I'm the kind of person who does that. And then your life has changed by two years, and so you're not going to want to be the kind of person who does that anymore. So now you need to change it without being like I'm changing my underlying belief system and it's all going to fall apart.
Jake:But that too is part of it. I am the type of person who transforms, and for me I use big dramatic language around that it's a death. It is a death of the person. I was to become something bigger. The first time you die, it's utterly terrifying. Everything inside you screams against it. When you realize that it was the best thing you've ever done for you, people around you, your kids, your spouse, whatever it is like, all of a sudden you become the type of person who can die and not be so afraid of it. You can actually be a little bit excited about what's on the other side.
Frank:Yeah, I don't usually call it death, but I can see the value in it.
Jake:Yeah, yeah, so those are some strategies, or?
Frank:This has been a conversation about something.
Jake:Yeah, I mean I think if I could create any sort of cohesive narrative around it is that there are competing voices constantly. Sometimes those things are in. Those voices are in harmony, usually after you've done quite a bit of work. If you haven't done the work, they're probably, you know, not harmonic. And when you feel the distance between them, I think it's an incredible process to interview those pieces of yourself to say why am I doing this?
Jake:Like I said, for me that looked like saying am I avoiding a decision out of fear, or am I moving actively, intentionally, towards something out of desire and chose to try to move in desire instead of away due to fear? And there are lots of strategies for bringing yourself out of mental cycles. Those look different for everyone. They might look like searching for information. It might look like avoiding a task that feels too big. It might feel like anxiety that leads to bodily panic attacks. It could just feel like I feel like everyone hates me and the whole world is against me. But breaking yourself apart from your thoughts and looking at the world around you exactly for what it is is usually an incredible first step.
Frank:Did you listen to the resilient waking up? I started to. There's some quote. I don't remember it, I only remember it.
Jake:I think I only listened to the first episode. That was it. Yeah, it's a good one. I think we still have a great episode about resilience that we can have. I don't think that one was about resilience. It really was sort of about letting go and the strategies that allow us to break ourselves away from the thoughts that we're having that we think reality is.
Frank:Yeah, I think we came back to being blown off course, seeing back on this amount of time, so I have no idea what the episode was about, but I think it's good, the power of the science, of the art of the strategies Of happiness.
Noah:Of intuition.
Frank:Yeah, yeah, we should do a resilience episode for sure.
Jake:Yeah, because it is.
Frank:You should listen to that resilience series, though I want to.
Jake:I just I still see that difference. We talked about breaking ourselves apart from our thoughts, and resilience requires that, but it, in my mind, requires us to exist in two places at once, and it's what she sort of talked about at the very end. There, it is to choose the story that we want to be a part of, while at the same time seeing through it. I know that this story, too, is just a thought. I'm in it without being defined by it, and when we can exist in those two places at once, we can't be blown off course, we can't be destroyed, because we were never the thing to begin with.
Frank:Yeah Well, yeah, that's close to what I feel about it, but it's not exactly.
Jake:Which is why there'll be a good conversation about it.
Frank:Yeah, I really identify with like the end of that.
Frank:But the, the we're a process and we're all our experiences up until now, and so in the moments, we can choose what to do and what to focus on and what to do about it and all that stuff. So like life is short, I think, and you only get so many deaths or whatever. However, you want to look at the milestones in life, and so to back away and fear and try to understand, for me is on some level, and so that's why I think we're here with all these people. We may as well do it together. I'm just talking about my experience. I don't know why.
Jake:I love that you're talking about your experience. I just um to me talking about how I thought I was, my thoughts and my fears and breaking them apart, dying and transforming, and all of that stuff is the experience of life. And now I'm talking to my friends about it and their experiences with it and that to me feels like being in the game. It actually doesn't feel like wasted time at all.
Frank:I think so too. I think I was saying that you, I was literally talking about my experience at the same time. Okay, how do you say it's a different way? If you've been, if you've been in a relationship argument for 9000 times, let's say it's a similar argument.
Jake:Sure.
Frank:New nuances are different the 9000 and first time. You probably don't need to go along the internet and research what causes a relationship argument. You probably need to go talk to the first thing you're arguing about. That's what I'm saying is a waste of time.
Jake:Okay.
Frank:Yeah, for a vibe?
Jake:Yeah, understanding it, I don't.
Frank:I'll just go research this and that's the answers in that.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:That your research is a practical sense of satisfaction on withdrawal.
Jake:Okay, yeah, I got you. Yeah, being a human is pretty cool. And when we can all sort of acknowledge, like I said, our own humanity, which is humiliating I love to humiliate it when I'm in an environment where other people are willing to be humiliated as well when we can all just say isn't it so weird, the stupid things that we do? I did something stupid just now. I saw you as someone that you aren't. I was projecting someone from 12 years ago onto you, like that's so crazy, isn't that weird? Do you forgive me? Like can we move on from this? You do it too, you know, it's like that's a deeply connecting experience to me.
Frank:Yeah, and the cool part is, if you do it enough, you might change how you see yourself. So others are like. You know you used to be this way and I've noticed that it seems like you're not anymore.
Jake:Yeah.
Frank:You're like oh, I guess I'm not. Yeah, I don't mean like pride about it, I mean just like that momentary, like oh man, it's a big change there.
Jake:That, to me, is the feeling of freedom. To me is not feeling like a prisoner to this experience. Oh, I was just born in a certain way and I don't get to change. Like the recognition that the decisions that I made had an impact on the trajectory of the process of who I am is like oh okay, I am an active agent in this and it feels good yeah.
Frank:Yeah. Do you think we should continue to talk forever?
Jake:No, no, we could be done, we are already done, you know, that's.
Frank:Do you have any final thoughts?
Noah:None.
Frank:What are you thinking about? Nothing.
Noah:Just listen to you guys talk.