Ever found yourself on a shaky train, trying to type an urgent email, and wondering if there's a deeper lesson in the chaos? Our latest episode is your companion through the tumult of productivity on-the-go, and we don't stop there. We're cracking the code on English linguistics, such as the elusive rationale behind using 'an' before certain 'H' words, and sharing a laugh at the shiny facade of resilience that sometimes hides the tougher truths about sustainability. The journey through these themes might just shake up your perspective, much like that train ride!
This conversation takes a personal detour as we recount the hard-earned wisdom of embracing love in the face of adversity, drawing parallels with the steadfastness of figures like Abraham Lincoln. We wrestle with the idea of resilience being inherited at birth versus a muscle built through life's challenges. You'll hear stories of perceived setbacks morphing into unexpected opportunities, and how a recent encounter with feeling undervalued led to a surprising twist of recognition and growth. It's a narrative about the power of mindset, and a testament to the fact that sometimes, life's greatest gifts come cleverly disguised as obstacles.
Turning the lens on team dynamics, the episode delves into the transformative power of vulnerability in leadership. We reflect on the liberating experience of letting go, a move that empowers teams and builds a unique kind of resilience—or should we say, 'resiliency with a playful y'? We'll explore how moments of trust can galvanize a group's independent success, and even recount a few linguistic bloopers to prove that resilience can also mean having a good chuckle at oneself. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt dialogue that finds the silver linings in life's challenges, and champions the spirit of resilience in all its forms.
Ever found yourself on a shaky train, trying to type an urgent email, and wondering if there's a deeper lesson in the chaos? Our latest episode is your companion through the tumult of productivity on-the-go, and we don't stop there. We're cracking the code on English linguistics, such as the elusive rationale behind using 'an' before certain 'H' words, and sharing a laugh at the shiny facade of resilience that sometimes hides the tougher truths about sustainability. The journey through these themes might just shake up your perspective, much like that train ride!
This conversation takes a personal detour as we recount the hard-earned wisdom of embracing love in the face of adversity, drawing parallels with the steadfastness of figures like Abraham Lincoln. We wrestle with the idea of resilience being inherited at birth versus a muscle built through life's challenges. You'll hear stories of perceived setbacks morphing into unexpected opportunities, and how a recent encounter with feeling undervalued led to a surprising twist of recognition and growth. It's a narrative about the power of mindset, and a testament to the fact that sometimes, life's greatest gifts come cleverly disguised as obstacles.
Turning the lens on team dynamics, the episode delves into the transformative power of vulnerability in leadership. We reflect on the liberating experience of letting go, a move that empowers teams and builds a unique kind of resilience—or should we say, 'resiliency with a playful y'? We'll explore how moments of trust can galvanize a group's independent success, and even recount a few linguistic bloopers to prove that resilience can also mean having a good chuckle at oneself. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt dialogue that finds the silver linings in life's challenges, and champions the spirit of resilience in all its forms.
Frank:
Let's launch this baby.
Jake:
Sup Frank.
Frank:
How you doing man. I'm whatever man.
Jake:
You're whatever, all right, yeah, you had a. You had a pretty busy week, didn't you? It's been a week.
Frank:
It's been two in a row. Yeah, one was travel and one was trying to recover from that travel choice. How was that?
Jake:
trip. Did you enjoy it?
Frank:
I enjoyed the concert a lot. Yeah, the trip was filled with more work than I've done in weeks before. Yeah, it's all compacted into every possible moment of that trip, like on the train with the screen like shaking because the train's shaking. You know, you're just like I'm trying to read. Just got to change the database this sprint connection on this Amtrak shake train.
Jake:
I hope I typed the right thing.
Frank:
I hope it sends.
Jake:
I hope it. That adds a stress component that you don't want on your trips.
Frank:
Yeah, and people messaging you and then you like reply, but those connection isn't good enough. So 14 minutes later they get your response and they're like are you dead? Nope, not dead, just slower than usual.
Jake:
Moving at high speeds yeah.
Frank:
Yeah.
Jake:
Yeah.
Frank:
I was not ideal.
Jake:
But it happened. Did you like? Was it primarily working or did you? You were there for what? Three days?
Frank:
We went up there on Tuesday during the day, so we were there for Wednesday and then we came back on Thursday during the day To visit some old haunts. Yeah, yeah, yep, a old haunt or two.
Jake:
An old haunt. Old haunt or two, yeah, and haunt, an haunt, an haunt.
Frank:
I did not.
Jake:
Yeah, you know how like when things start with the letter H like historic, they say it's an historic event.
Frank:
I think you mean prehistoric, no.
Jake:
No, this is. This is a weird thing, because the word historic, if you don't really pronounce the H, it sounds like it starts with an I, and when we start words with vowels, we use the word and instead of a and apple.
Frank:
The reason we do that's because there's a vowel. Yeah.
Jake:
Yeah, it's. It creates an absence of harmony, because saying a apple is a little bit too close for comfort for our mouths, so we disrupt it with a consonant. So that's why we do that. However, there is this one weird rule, which is that when something starts with H, sometimes people use the word and like an historic occasion, and it drives me insane. But I just did that with the word haunt and haunt.
Frank:
Oh, it's not actually the presence of a vowel. It's the presence of a vowel. Sound, apologies.
Jake:
Yes.
Frank:
Yeah, I wasn't. I didn't have a strong argument against what you were saying. I just had never heard it as a vowel. No, it may be. No, it makes a perfect sense.
Jake:
I was thinking about it in terms of phonetics and not in terms of our orthography. So it makes sense that nobody else would think that, unless they were trained in linguistics. When linguists talk about vowels, they're talking about sounds. You can denote those sounds with a letter. But yeah, we're talking. We're talking about sounds.
Frank:
Oh nice. This is how an apple is okay and a university is okay.
Jake:
Interesting it's yeah, it wouldn't be an university Interesting, Because we're actually starting with like a yeah, which is a glide, which is like is a continental sound. Yeah, interestingly enough, you know it's because vowel is always a voiced sound, but it is changed based on where it's created in the mouth. So a and a are almost too close to each other in the mouth to go from one to the other, so we want to break it up with a different sound.
Frank:
Try it.
Jake:
A octopus.
Frank:
A octopus yeah it makes it.
Jake:
It makes it sound like a diphthong. Most vowels are monophthongs, which is a single sound. However, we have diphthongs as well, like I, which is actually a e, and you're moving your mouth from one to the other I. When would you do that In the word right, right, right, I, right. This is one of the sounds that we make Right, right.
Frank:
Right Cool.
Jake:
This has been. Words of Jake Detour, we didn't intend to make.
Frank:
Did we have an intention?
Jake:
that's my, that's my theme song works with jake, a detour we didn't intend to make.
Frank:
We should work on a theme song record. That I agree, and there's nothing like having a theme song for the segment. That is thing, the detour you didn't intend to make.
Jake:
No, I really do like it, though it's kind of like theme songs with Jake, an unintentional detour that you didn't intend to make.
Frank:
Yeah, and you have a song for it and there's like yeah, what are we talking about today? Resilience?
Jake:
Yeah, well, I was gonna try to make the transition a little rougher than that, if you're cool with it.
Frank:
Um, that's fine, go ahead.
Jake:
So, wow, you had a rough couple of weeks. You're pretty resilient, fella, aren't you?
Frank:
What's the number one way to tell if someone's resilient? They're shiny. I think that's brilliant.
Jake:
Yeah, I think you're right. Okay, I was wrong. What's the number one way you think I'm gonna have to rethink of this? I?
Frank:
don't know, man, I don't know.
Jake:
So my my experience with the word resilient more than any other was in a class. It was called environmental anthropology and we essentially were looking at the ways that humans have impacts on the world. At the end we had a debate. The debate was between different philosophical, like modes of operation in the world. Once we understand the impact on the world, we sort of have this responsibility for the future of our species To do something in a more sustainable way. So the question was between sustainability and resiliency, sustainability being like we're going to try to make the best decisions possible now so that they're sustainable into the future. And the other one was well, maybe we've got some wiggle room and maybe we're going to do some things wrong and hurt the environment, but we're pretty resilient as a species and we'll depend on our future selves to sort of bounce back and make it.
Frank:
Okay, that's what the superfund sites are all about. They overlooked sustainability Because they knew later we'd figure it out and they dumped toxic waste all over our country and we had to go clean it up. Right, yeah, is this the thing?
Jake:
I'm saying what you're saying. I know what you're talking about. I guess I had a hard time connecting Superfund.
Frank:
Oh, like those waste sites. We went to Gotcha the last two weeks ago or something. Yeah, me and Brandi went to. Do you know what they are now?
Jake:
Yeah, yeah, but yes, you're exactly right. I mean, we were in a fight to get atomic power working and man, we just made everything atomic from like 1945 to 1970. And we had a potential plan for where to put all that toxic waste that we had never as a species dealt with before, but never actually cleared that with any sort of legislation. And today, almost 100 years later, that toxic waste is in temporary storage facilities, which is pretty cool, huh. There's one like five miles away from here.
Frank:
Yeah, that one's cool, though Is there one five miles. It's pretty close, I don't know, oh, okay. It's near here. Yeah, the one in Weldon Spring Missouri is sweet. I don't think it's temporary, though I think it's like the capital, it's final resting place now.
Jake:
Yeah.
Frank:
Yeah, that's what resilience will give you, yeah.
Jake:
I don't think that's the typical thing that we're talking about when we talk about resilience.
Frank:
What I mean when.
Jake:
I think of resilience I'm thinking of, I actually think of Abraham Lincoln, like I think, whenever I was younger there was some sort of story that I heard. It was like, yeah, when Abraham Lincoln was born to these poor people and he had like three wives and all of them died of diphtheria or something yeah right. Then he lost a couple of kids and this guy was resilient, became the president and did some really cool stuff.
Frank:
Yeah. Do you think it's required to have adversity to become resilient, or do you think there are some really resilient people that just never had bad luck yet?
Jake:
I don't know that those two are mutually exclusive. I think that if resiliency is a skill, that, yes, adversity would be required to train the skill, to develop it. Yeah, but I'm going to guess that there's some sort of baseline equity or disposition in personality that makes a person more resilient or less, just based on the way that they approach the world.
Frank:
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think just your disposition, like about growth mindset or whatever, like if this bad thing happened, is it me, I'm bad, so I should quit, mm-hmm. The opposite of that seems like resilience. Sure, if that thing happened, but it's not going to stop me, I always find a way. Yeah, go through the thing anyways. That seems like what resilience is.
Jake:
I would agree entirely. I was having this conversation with Elizabeth a couple of days ago and I was thinking about how, when we put a desire out into the world, we often don't get exactly what we're expecting. And so for me, there was this experience of wanting to be loved, wanting to experience like a deep belonging and acceptance and intimacy For the next 10 or 12 years. I did not get that thing. I fought to try to get it.
Frank:
Mm-hmm.
Jake:
And I kept thinking, man, I just really want this, but it is not happening.
Jake:
After a while I matured and moved away from that relationship that I wasn't receiving that, and now I'm in one where I have experienced the contrast.
Jake:
So not only am I experiencing the thing that I wanted 15 years ago, but I'm actually present and have had enough experience to truly appreciate it for what it is.
Jake:
And I just thought that was really interesting, because when you look at the narrative arc of that story, you say Jake puts out into the universe, he wants to manifest love and acceptance, and what he receives in turn five years later is not exactly that and it feels like a failure and it feels frustrating, like he's beating his head against a wall. But if you expand that timeline of that narrative arc, you say wait a second. In order for Jake to actually get what he truly wanted, which was to be able to appreciate it, he had to have that interim period that taught him about that contrast and what it was like not to have it. So I think that when we experience stories like that where, if you just zoom out and you give it a long enough time scale to work out, you realize that the hiccup or the bump in the road is not just this inconvenience, but it's actually necessary for you to get a holistic version of what you're asking for, to become the person who can really appreciate it when you're there.
Frank:
I think you're skilled at this narrative, narrativizing of your own story. Do you think you do it well in the moment now, like if you found yourself in this story and it's all seems to be going poorly? Do you think you're at the point that you can like notice this? I do that. It's not bad that. It's just on a sort of milestone along the road.
Jake:
Yeah, yeah. Now I feel that way.
Frank:
How do you change that?
Jake:
I think it takes having those experiences. I think it takes getting to the other side on a couple of occasions and doing enough of a retrospective and being honest enough to say the bad thing was necessary for the good thing to be as good as it is, so that the next time you get into the bad thing you go. Thank you, I can't wait to see what this test gives me. Like, there's a gift here. I just have to wait for it to unwrap itself.
Frank:
I don't always find that easy to do.
Jake:
Yeah.
Frank:
Any recent examples, probably personal, but anything like one, even a made up synthetic one, might be helpful.
Jake:
Yeah, I mean, it's geez, like it could be something really tiny. There was a an experience a couple about a month ago, where I was coaching a local gym and I knew that bad weather was coming in, texted the owner of the gym and I said, hey, should we cancel classes in the morning? And he was like no, I don't think there's going to be any ice, it's just going to be snow. And I woke up the next morning at 330 in the morning and you know it wasn't a great thing. And I walked outside and the first thing I did was fall down the concrete steps and I went to the gym and two people showed up for the first class and zero showed up for the second class and it was just like kind of frustrating. I felt a little bit unseen in that situation and I was just like whatever. You know, this is growing me in Doing things I don't want to do or whatever. And I just took that moment to say, all right, you know, we'll see what kind of plant this seed turns into. And the next thing, you know, I actually received a text from the owners of the gym and they paid me extra, like more than I would have made that day normally, and they said, hey, thank you so much. You know we're, we appreciate what you've done and stuff like that. And so it was just like this side effect of, you know, feeling seen and appreciated.
Jake:
Afterwards that couldn't have happened without the bad moment. Now I could have suffered through that bad moment and I could have been like, oh, nobody ever listens to me. I'm so upset, wasted my time, I didn't get as much sleep as I wanted to Like. There's a whole slew of Do you do that sometimes? Those things absolutely can run through your mind. Yeah, those just put me in a state of suffering, and suffering for me is this state of wanting to be somewhere other than I am, wanting a different state than the one that reality is currently presenting, and it's like wanting that so badly and not getting. It is true, suffering, but having a preference and that preference not being given to you. That's not suffering, that's reality, and there's beauty and potential in every moment, even if it's not what you expected.
Frank:
So do you have to do this multiple times that day, this sort of three narrative or what like? So you fell down the steps.
Jake:
Yeah, I left. Did that get you at all? No, that was the first one.
Frank:
You're like whatever.
Jake:
Honestly, in that scenario, everything happened the night before when, when I was told, no, you're still going to have to get up in the morning and get now into the inclement weather, I went okay, I've got a choice right now, and this, I truly believe, is the development of the skill. It used to be that I had to do what you said, where it was like oh, I'm catching myself in a negative narrative I've got to remind myself what's going on. Now, knowing that I have that tendency, the night before, when I realize I've no longer got any control over this situation, I give it up. It very intentionally, like a three minute, five minute period with myself where I just go okay, what are the implications of this? All right, I'm gonna let go of all the feelings around it. I'm gonna let go of all the symbolism around it, or the hurt, or the disappointment, and it's gone. I don't have control over it. Let's go into it and make it the best experience it could be.
Frank:
So did any of the subsequent, like only two people show up or no one shows up? Did any of those get you back towards the baseline, even though you prepared for the situation?
Jake:
It's funny? No, they could have. It was almost like sitting in a room with two other people, two other characters. One was the guy who was like I told you it was gonna be bad, and the other guy who's like yeah, and here's the proof, and me just kind of watching that interaction inside of me and laughing about it. Like it was kind of laughable to watch it try to come back up so I saw it happening, but no, it didn't get me.
Frank:
All right.
Jake:
I like it. Anyway, this was a pretty big digression, but I guess there's some resiliency built into that.
Frank:
Yeah, I mean, I think so Basically. You condensed it into like a 12 hour thing. But if you did this over your life, you control the things that you can and the others, you sort of are open to occurring. I think that's resilience.
Jake:
Yeah, it makes me wonder if this whole expectation and an unmet expectation feels necessary for resilience to truly be what it is. I think that what I just described there is probably the product of resilience, but it's almost impenetrable. Like resilience to me is like you get a dent in your car and then you're able to pop it back out and it comes back to what it once was. And what I feel like I did in that situation was to like reinforce my car and make it so that you could throw a boulder at it and it wasn't gonna get dented. And so it, to me, is this other thing Like when you have an expectation and that expectation is not met, you find yourself in that place of suffering. Resilience is some sort of ability to climb out of that pit, and I think it's a set of skills that you can develop, but I don't think it's not falling into the pit.
Frank:
No, yeah, I think it's figuring out how to get the train back on the track when the track disappeared or you got blown off of it or whatever it's almost like.
Jake:
Here's what I see in myself and I kinda wanna know what you think about this too. I play out different potential narratives, Like the one that comes to your mind when you're shooting for a goal and something blows you off course a big setback. It's pretty easy and probably the default state to fall into the negative mindset I'm never gonna achieve that goal or it's gonna take so much more work and be so much harder to achieve that goal. That's pretty quickly where the brain wants to go. I probably as a result of that long timeline thing that I talked about and seeing the negative things turn into positive things. So often I think what I do is I start asking myself what are all the positive things that could come from this that I never could have realized if it hadn't happened? And then I start to look at it more like a gift and that's one of the strategies I use for getting myself out of that pit.
Frank:
Yeah, that's a good one. I do that too, do you? Yeah, not always, not well, but you know I've talked about this behavior change thing that I sort of wanna do this course or framework or something. I don't even know what it is and I came at it with the approach that like I might have had that figured out on some level.
Frank:
Okay yeah, right, and so recently I've had some difficulty getting my behavior to match my intentions, and that's pissing me off a little. But it's also a gift in that I can use, like. I have a perfect subject for trying these things that are supposed to be so good that I wanna share them with the world. Right, yeah, so there's a gift there. Yeah, that's awesome. I should probably apply that idea.
Jake:
I was gonna say so you haven't really yet.
Frank:
No, I have been, but I've been. I just have had too much to even be intentional about anything really related to myself. But yeah, I mean, I don't know I will get there, but stress is a big problem for me. So if I'm off course, usually it's at the core of the problem.
Jake:
Okay, what do you mean? What are you calling stress? There? Is that like a state of overwhelm.
Frank:
Sure, yeah, it's that there's more. There are more people who need things from me than there is time. That's usually the source of stress. You know, I'm usually doing things that are complicated and I do them quickly. And some people get used to that and they are like oh, frankly, I'll give you whatever complicated, no matter how complicated it is, they'll have it right back to you. And so when there's a whole group of people who know this, they want all those things out at the same time. Yeah, and they are complicated some of them. Yeah, yeah, and I use a lot of machine processes to help Decomplicate things, but Sometimes things break, sometimes things just are actually complicated and I haven't solved it with some automation. So when all, if there's a whole bunch of people who need things all at the same time, then Like, the way out is through, yes, so it's just like I'm got more work than there's time for and it looks like it's gonna be this way for a real long time.
Jake:
Yeah, totally get that. So, yeah, the. The goal for you and the gift is to potentially use this experience as a an alpha test for right the tools that you want to put out there and and potentially even find new Frameworks of pathways along the way that could be beneficial.
Frank:
Oh yeah, I mean I have, I probably know 15 of the. I Don't. I think probably have 300 documented, but I know 15 well, mm-hmm. So there are Many sort of strategies and ideas that I haven't even tried or I just have like got some remnant that someone has had benefit from this on some level.
Frank:
So yeah, I definitely can try some new ones. I Also like just some novelty in difficult things. For me is like a part of it, like designing a new system or Using negative consequences or choosing positive content, like just changing it in some way. Like it gets old, it gets boring on some levels, though Having something to switch up that's not the core is probably important.
Frank:
Yeah, yeah, I don't know what you call that, but there's a thing you call it. One of the main things that helps people actually change their behavior is what is making a choice about, what the consequences will be. Oh so like man who did the. I don't remember who the research is, but it's not that long ago. They did some program Maybe it was weight loss or something and at the end of the program, if you did well, you could earn a thousand dollars or something.
Jake:
Mm-hmm.
Frank:
And so there are people who could choose to like start with a thousand dollars and if they missed their workouts or missed there, whatever they deducted some money. Okay. And then there are people who could choose to start with Zero and they made them.
Jake:
They got five dollars. Okay, yeah.
Frank:
Um, and then there are people who did not have this incentive available at all okay. Whether it was positive or negative Wasn't relevant, but the the the ability to make a choice. I'm sorry there was another there's like another group that had the program, but they got it assigned to them, right.
Jake:
Okay.
Frank:
Yeah, so the people who Made a choice about positive or negative had like a massively higher success. Okay then, even the people who got the same amount of money.
Jake:
So it wasn't just that there was an incentive, it was that they had a choice in what the plate of role in these in the incentivization process.
Frank:
I mean everyone in the study, like across all four groups that were incentivized, got the same amount of money.
Frank:
Yeah it wasn't the amount of money, huh, and the people who got the same amount of money, positive or negative, didn't even do Like, positive or negative didn't seem to play a role, really, yeah, but choosing positive or negative, like being making that active choice, uh-huh, was key. So and I that see, that feels true to me, and it doesn't feel true like I have to design the system. It's like After design the system and when it gets boring, I have to redesign it. And it has to seem interesting to me.
Jake:
Sure, absolutely. I mean that's, that's the I'm totally guessing here. But I mean, when I hear I played a role in choosing, I hear agency, yeah. And when I hear I need novelty in that, in that decision-making, it sounds to me like we're saying, okay, well, a person is a process, and who I was three months ago whenever I set the incentive program, isn't the same person now? And that person I am now kind of feels disengaged from the system I set. Then let's re-engage, re-remember my agency in this, yeah, and be an active participant.
Frank:
Yeah, and the whole idea behind the Scheduling and to-do list app motion. It's that like you're a human, you're gonna change. Like how you feel about programs and incentives is gonna change. So they like have all the major ways that you can categorize your yeah. Inputs and time block them or not time block them or whatever Built into the system so you can be like I'm tired of AI scheduling my stuff. Yeah, turn that off and switch to me dropping it on the calendar.
Jake:
I thought of another gift that I got from a disappointing experience. At the beginning of this year. We switched up our business model like crazy and it was on me not only to design the delivery process, and from front to back, but to begin delivering that like the first week of January, and it was all happening at once. I felt insanely overwhelmed and in retrospect I'm realizing it wasn't a capacity problem. I did it, I got it done. It was a desire for perceived control problem.
Jake:
I really like to know the processes that I create front to back, to have engaged with it multiple times, to have tested it, to have to feel a sense of confidence in it. In this situation I did not have that luxury. I had to trust myself and my ability to design and deliver, to press play on that, to let it go by itself on autopilot, and the result was to watch it succeed. There were some bumps. You smooth them out, right, that's fine. That was one of the greatest gifts that I never knew.
Jake:
I needed to be able to sit back a little bit further, to not have to be 100% engaged with every single little thing, to feel a little bit more confident. Delegating was like it freed up my mental bandwidth and it's a tool now that I know I have in my toolbox and I can develop it more as I build out the team underneath me and feel not stressed and anxious, wondering if it's working without me being right there to turn the gears Right. So that's a huge benefit. And I mean, beginning a January first week of January, I had a panic attack. For the first time in years I hadn't had one and I had one that was hours long. That's an intense experience that was obviously feeling negative at the moment and even then I was thinking something good is going to come out of this. I didn't know what it was yet, but I knew something good would yeah, I'm not very good at that.
Jake:
Which part.
Frank:
The backing away and you know it goes. It's very different. That's not true. I'm incredibly good at it with computers. Okay, better than most. I'm like, yeah, I wrote that code, it's going to run. Yeah, I need to do more of that with humans.
Jake:
I mean Noah's not here, Noah's in Puerto Rico right now. So I'll just say what he's going to say, which is everything's the same.
Frank:
These were going to be the episodes without this bit.
Jake:
Well, this is the vulnerability piece that's almost non-emotional. It's like we talked about vulnerability a few weeks ago and it was hey, you know, I put myself out there with a human being and I say this is who I am and I'm not changing myself. Will you accept me? This is very similar to that dynamic, and it is I'm going to let go of the reins, I'm going to let go of control and kind of hand it off to my team. I'm going to watch you guys, are you going to take the baton and run with it? And it is only in that moment of vulnerability and releasing control that I can actually stand out of the way long enough to watch them succeed on their own. And I give them a gift, which is agency and empowerment, and I give myself a gift, which is the knowledge that I don't have to be the one steering 100% of the time.
Jake:
Very similar dynamic. I think that's resiliency, yeah, kind of maybe.
Frank:
I think it is. I don't know why you put a Y on the end of it, but I'm going to love with it.
Jake:
It's resiliency that would make it a I don't know. Not a pal I thought I was making it an adjective, but I'm not, it's just resilience.