Listening Deeply: Cultivating Connection Through the Art of Active Listening

Frank: 0:45

All right, you wanted to talk about active listening.

Jake: 0:47

I really did. What do you think of when you think of active listening?

Frank: 0:51

I mean, I think of presence really, it's just being present. It's maybe sort of elevating the other person above yourself on some level, like maybe not like on a pedestal, but sort of this person's a person too and they have experiences that are different than mine and I ought to hear them, so it's, I mean, I don't know. It's sort of like attending to the fact that they're a human and they have sort of body language and real language and needs and wants and all of these components sort of coming together and just giving all the focus to that, instead of I want this conversation like I'm steering the ship is no part of it or something.

Jake: 1:41

Yeah, oh, that's interesting.

Frank: 1:44

Let them steer the ship, maybe.

Jake: 1:46

Like really pushing control a little bit. Well, it's kind of interesting right there in the phrase itself. Active listening sort of implies that there is such a thing as inactive listening.

Frank: 1:58

Yeah.

Jake: 1:59

One of the weirdest things about our senses I mean, I guess it works with sight as well probably taste if you're not really paying attention to it, so they can be kind of passive. I hear the words that you're saying, they're making sounds, they're probably even being processed in some part of my brain, but I'm not actually giving you my attention. Definitely that has happened a lot in my life. Yeah, you know parents who say that their kids have selective hearing and stuff like that, spouses who might say that as well.

Frank: 2:36

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if you've sometimes, if you're a part of, like a committee or something. I'm trying to explain this in a way that would make sense to almost anyone who heard it. But suppose you're like on a leader, you're a part of the leadership of an initiative and you're also a part of the execution of the initiative. So you have meetings, a committee whatever things ahead of time where you talk about the ideas and how they'll be presented to others, and then you're present when they're presented to others.

Jake: 3:14

Okay.

Frank: 3:15

So you were formative in how they'll be presented. So you, during this, you're like I already know this information. Your brain is really struggling to do it because you were. But then, right after it, it's coupled next information that you don't know yet.

Jake: 3:32

Okay.

Frank: 3:33

And so I've had this experience where I'm like zoned out, I might want to listen, but I already know everything that they're saying. I literally crafted the narrative that they're saying. So this person's presenting this thing and then suddenly I'm like what are they talking about? Why wasn't I listening? Because they're talking about something that wasn't a part of what I was a part of. That's very passive. So whatever was happening was passive listening, because I don't have the information. Sure, absolutely. That happens frequently to me for things like that.

Jake: 4:05

It makes sense, completely makes sense, and it actually brings up an aspect that I hadn't really thought of, which is this sort of switch that goes from one to the other, and if we are sort of trained in a certain way to not really be engaged in a certain environment, that it can be hard to flip that switch and be like, oh, I need to. But I guess all of that kind of doesn't really get to the point of why it's important, and I can think of times in my life when I have heard but not really listened to a person, and it's most easy to think about this in terms of the romantic relationship. You're so comfortable, I've almost considered it a mark of intimacy to have my brain shut off around a certain person, and so I will often times at this point in my life just say, hey, I'm sorry, I haven't heard a word you've said for the last two minutes.

Jake: 5:18

I know it's annoying, but could you start over for me please?

Frank: 5:21

Yeah, how's that go for you?

Jake: 5:23

Really well.

Frank: 5:24

Yeah, you need to. It takes a special person to be able to help you with that when it happens.

Jake: 5:30

Oh yeah, well, and I mean, you only get once Like, if you do that again immediately.

Frank: 5:37

All right, I know that was four minutes of your time now, but could you start once again?

Jake: 5:42

I'm not gonna say it hasn't happened.

Frank: 5:44

I'm saying it's from experience.

Jake: 5:46

You only get the one time. So I think it sort of is it's an extension of what you said to begin with, like when you're actively listening to another individual, you're giving them control and you're saying I respect you, I respect that you have a unique perspective, that you have unique information, that what you're saying is different than well again to your other example than something I've heard before. I'm not assuming that I already know what you're gonna say.

Jake: 6:16

I'm not assuming that I would have crafted this the same way. You are your own person and I respect you and I wanna hear what you have to say.

Frank: 6:25

People wanna feel respected, I wanna feel respected, so yeah, I mean I'm thinking of the first of all. Certainly I do the same thing you just said, which is like can you just just tell me that again, because I don't know where I was, but it was not here.

Frank: 6:48

Yeah yeah, I also have had the very ugly experience of accidentally noticing that I'm overriding, so like someone's trying to tell me something very important and I'm like, all right, let's go for what you know, yeah, yeah, we need to leave, we have time, you know just sort of this ego thing, that's okay. Next thing and I don't have to be like I'm really sorry, I don't know, why did that let's do the two minutes again, because I wasn't paying attention. Right, sometimes that goes better than others, but Sure, did you hear that?

Jake: 7:27

That was my stomach.

Frank: 7:28

That was my stomach.

Jake: 7:32

You sure yes. We have synchronized stomachs now I feel like it was my stomach.

Frank: 7:38

I so also.

Jake: 7:41

Interesting Okay.

Frank: 7:43

Was it sort of like a siren? Yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Jake: 7:48

Yeah, it was sort of.

Frank: 7:49

That happened in my stomach.

Jake: 7:51

Okay, but it may have also happened in my stomach.

Frank: 7:53

That might be.

Jake: 7:54

We can't discount this possibility.

Frank: 7:55

I think it did.

Jake: 7:56

Yeah.

Frank: 7:57

All right. What was my other point? Something about oh yeah. So there's a thing that also happens, where so much of my brain is dedicated to predicting what's happening in the conversation, so that I can respond or something, at least in certain modes, and I will know that the person is done before they have caught up with it in their speech.

Jake: 8:25

Yes.

Frank: 8:26

And I've had it where, the moment they say the last word, I switch to the next thing, and so they're like I wasn't done talking and I'm like. Ok, go ahead, and there's nothing, because they were done.

Jake: 8:42

I have experienced it. It's painful, it really is.

Frank: 8:47

I'm really sorry that I did that. Please go ahead.

Jake: 8:50

Yeah, oh, 100%. You probably have that with me a lot, because I give often many examples for what I'm talking about, and it's one of the hard things also about being on this podcast. I want to give examples for diverse audiences, but the people that I'm talking to here in the room, they don't need three examples, and so it may sound as though I'm condescending to you, but in my mind there's a different audience.

Frank: 9:20

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think what my point about it is is that active listening would never be doing that.

Frank: 9:30

Like if I were doing active listening then I would never switch so quickly. Sure, because I would have been tuned in. And even so, you can be tuned into the narrative and know, yeah, I have the complete idea and there doesn't seem like there could be a next piece to this puzzle. But that's so different from letting the person realize that. Sure, and I do know people who never realize it, and that's probably sort of why I developed the oh you're done next sort of mentality, because there are some people who just will continue to repeat the same thing over and over and, over and, over and over for the rest of their lives, if you let them.

Jake: 10:10

Yeah, oh for sure it reminds me a little bit of what you've talked about before is like the difference between build and sales language Build language is you're in problem solving mode. Once I understand the problem, you don't have to keep talking. Let me just start telling you what the solution is. But it's also a unidirectional conversation. There's a power dynamic to some degree. It's hey, I've got a problem, I don't know how to solve it, help. And then you're like okay, you came to me for this. Let me give you what you asked for.

Jake: 10:44

In relationships, though, it's very bidirectional, and not only do I want you to hear me, I want to know that you've heard me. I want you to see me as a person. And, it's true, I think that empathy is huge in this situation, because I know what it's like to want to get all my words out, and so I can put myself in the shoes of the other person and say they probably want to be heard too. It validates, right. Yeah, what is it like? What is it like? It's a great question. It makes me feel as though I am worthwhile, that I wasn't just being used to get information, but that the way that I described that information is also in some way appreciated. Like hey, I took the time to put this analogy together and you wanted to hear it to the end for the sake of it. I like that. So, yeah, it's less of a commodity, if that makes sense. Yeah, yes, it does. Less transactional is probably the better way to say it.

Frank: 12:03

I can't hear the word commodity without thinking of Dr Tran. Do you know that? No, what, what is it? He's like a little Asian, not a doctor guy. Okay, he's probably a big fan of YouTube. But he says I am not a commodity. They say he's a commodity and he's being traded in the world and he says I'm not a commodity. Got it Okay.

Jake: 12:32

That's it.

Frank: 12:33

That's all I thought about. But yeah, I'm sure it's very invalidating then to be shut down. So, if, like I'm not done telling you all the things I know about this in all the detail, sure, probably varies by the person who shuts you down. Oh sure, me or no, I probably, you just know, we understand faster.

Jake: 12:58

It's gotten there yeah.

Frank: 13:01

But yeah, I would think it varies a little by relationship, but it doesn't seem like it's worth doing to shut you down.

Jake: 13:12

Sure, sure. It seems as though. Well, I'll actually I'll just use myself as an example again. So that's what it feels like to be validated. What does it feel like to be invalidated? Well, it feels like not being seen, not being valued, and thus, maybe when I speak up, it isn't appreciated. So maybe I should just stay quiet. So it's more of like the effect that it has on the individual in the future If I'm not going to be heard, what's the point in putting the effort into talking? So, from like a generative standpoint, if we want goodness and growth to proliferate, it's actually highly valuable Make other people feel seen and not just see them, not just see what they have to say, but to make sure that they know that you've seen them.

Frank: 14:10

Yeah, how do you do that? How do you validate someone? I mean I think you. There's a book. I hear you.

Jake: 14:22

Mm-hmm yeah.

Frank: 14:24

You've read it more recently than I have, I think.

Jake: 14:26

Yeah, I started reading it again. It's probably been a month ago, so very recently. That doesn't mean I remember it.

Frank: 14:36

I'll tell you what. The only thing I know about it is that when I read it, I put the principles in there to practice and relationships got a lot better. I don't even remember all of them, to be honest. It sort of felt unnatural and I didn't keep doing it. Enough become natural, which is just a really long way of saying I think I should probably read it again. Yeah, Because it did feel like integrates.

Jake: 15:09

Is that a word? Integrates?

Frank: 15:11

or integral. It felt like it belonged in the core of who I am. It didn't feel like I was doing some practice, but it didn't feel like I was good at it yet.

Jake: 15:24

Yeah.

Frank: 15:24

Yeah, and so I didn't keep doing it, or something but it feels like it belongs.

Jake: 15:29

Oh, I 100% agree.

Jake: 15:31

One of them a while back I will, I was, and we'll talk about the book in just a second.

Jake: 15:37

But a while back I was scrolling through YouTube and I saw this video that was like the five ways to have better conversations, and I don't remember four of them, but one of them that has stuck with me for a long time and it's probably because it convicted me in some way of some offense that I had and that was hey, if you're thinking about the next thing you want to say while the other person is talking, you're not actually listening to what they have to say.

Jake: 16:08

So there is the very practical move, the problem-solving mode of conversation, where it's hey, you said this and now I'm going to say this, and it's going to move the conversation forward in a set direction. Well, that can lead to dead ends and it really only allows the conversation to be one thing, if you want to have better conversations actually listening to what that person has to say, not assuming that what you were thinking is the best thing to say next, and allowing that conversation to sort of flow like a river and be like hey, we're both uncovering this conversation as it goes sort of allows us both to take equal part in the creation of this shared experience.

Frank: 16:57

Yeah.

Jake: 16:59

So I think that piece of active listening for me is sort of it requires me to be mindful of whether I am just trying to move it in one direction or if I'm actually listening.

Frank: 17:23

Yeah, so I agree with what you're saying and it makes me think of something different.

Jake: 17:30

What's that which is?

Frank: 17:33

I think there are really powerful practical uses of AI in this. I think if you could imagine this conversation sort of like you assign two egos. You're like, okay, you listen to Jake, you listen to Frank, and then on the screen you have a split, and then there's the generated narrative from our conversation, from your perspective and from mine, and we can both look at it and it's live updating as we talk. You could try to reach a conclusion where you both have a similar narrative or find areas of conflict, or it could guide your conversation, Not in the we wanted to control it way but where are they different? Where are we the same and I don't know. I think that'd be cool way to sort of have AI augment connection.

Jake: 18:30

Sure Like, do these look in any way similar, right, or are they having two separate conversations at the same table?

Frank: 18:37

Yeah, yeah, and they're always different in some way, and so you can do whatever you want. The human's still in control, I think, but you can do whatever you want with the information. We're having totally different conversations. Let's have yours. We're having totally different conversations, but how are they the same, or Absolutely yeah?

Jake: 18:57

I see this piece. I'm talking about this very minuscule thing that I see. Then the other person says that reminds me of something totally different. It's this other side of it and you go oh my gosh, we're looking at the same thing from different places. There's so much more here. That's the point of sharing, I think.

Frank: 19:14

Yeah, anyway, so much to build that product. Yeah, that's cool. This idea was free, you can take it and steal it. I don't have time for that, but yeah, it will be so cool if you could have your comp, like, I think about this sort of product a lot, where, if you could use the information that happens on your Zoom calls it's some kind of summarized way that sums up to the leadership oh, okay, and especially if you could de-identify it so people felt safe. Yeah, okay, but on all the calls in the shipping division, everyone is really angry or whatever. They're angry because this choice we made. You know, like you could get insights from these conversations that are happening in a way that doesn't hurt someone For sure Seems valuable. I hope someone's probably doing that already. But if not, build that thing.

Jake: 20:10

That's really cool. Yeah, For business leadership that is actually interested in progress and growth. They should be concerned about what their teams are concerned about.

Frank: 20:21

Yeah, I don't hate them, but I don't prefer large organizations. Really that's not really my area of the interest. I don't think they're the best for much of anything, but this is one huge benefit you could get from huge organizations is like if you could always be summing up your sort of divisional conversations and monitoring them. I could help you a lot, but not to take you completely away from the topic, but it was just an idea I had from the idea of active listening being augmented by AI.

Jake: 20:56

Yeah, no, it's a cool idea. These are things that your brain thinks about, that that mind does not Like. You're constantly coming up with these solutions that I'm like I didn't even know there was a problem, or yeah, so when you're having a conversation and it's over, whatever it's a.

Frank: 21:14

You met someone for coffee and the conversation's over and you remember 20%. Through the conversation they brought up a point. You didn't meet it on any level, you ignored it, you went with your ego or whatever. You don't ever feel like man. I wish I would have went down that road with them 100%.

Jake: 21:32

I do.

Frank: 21:32

Yeah, that's what I wish. I could see it while I'm having the conversation, like he made a major bullet point about the price of tea in China and we didn't even talk about it, you know.

Jake: 21:47

I'm kind of curious now, what's going on with that?

Frank: 21:49

What are you talking about with that? Yeah?

Jake: 21:50

Would it be cool?

Frank: 21:51

to see. That's what I think.

Jake: 21:53

I love it. I totally see the value, mostly because I suck at it.

Frank: 21:56

Sure, you know, even when I practice it, I'm, it's, whatever is salient for me in your conversation points or what's going to win, but they might not be the most important at all. Sure, I mean, as a living organism or whatever, they are most important. Obviously that's how they the path came to be. But there might be a huge insight that changes all the rest of my life. That was missed in bullet point number two about price of tea in China, and I didn't even notice it.

Jake: 22:34

Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I mean that is sort of like the selective pressure of a conversation is it's not what was the strongest right? You can have the biggest gorilla with the most muscle mass, but if the selective pressure is a famine, well, all of a sudden he's got a lot more expensive tissues to keep alive and he's going to die off. Yeah, the selective pressure in a conversation isn't the most important thing to one individual. It is what was in some way shared and those little connections are what move it forward, which is fine. In just two friends that want to get together and share life, that's great. But if I'm trying to say, hey, man, I'm having a hard time. This is what's going on in my life and my wife left me and my dog died and my mom's got cancer and you're like it seems like you're going to be right in country songs.

Frank: 23:33

Exactly that's what I think.

Jake: 23:34

Country music is so great. That's what's so great about country is that you could talk about and exactly it's that right.

Jake: 23:43

It's like these shared concepts and all of a sudden we miss out on it, and that's really what that book I hear you and this conversation piece that I got from that YouTube video I see is one of these main takeaways. It's like I don't know that active listening piece is both active presently but it's also almost presently retrospective. It's hey, I'm listening to you, but I'm also kind of keeping this shortlist on a notepad in my mind of yeah we're going to come back to that too.

Jake: 24:20

I want to make sure that we get to everything you're saying and that book. He kind of starts out talking about an experience that he had on the first or second date I think it was a second date and he says the first date was great, we had so much chemistry, it was fantastic. And the second date she seemed like a totally different person and she seemed down and not very talkative and I just asked what was going on in her life and she said, oh, you know, my parents are getting a divorce after 30 years, or something like that. And his response was wow, that sounds really hard, yeah.

Jake: 24:58

And a few more seconds go by of silence and he's not really sure what's going to happen. And then she starts just talking nonstop. And she starts talking about these other things that are going on and how hard it's been, and these are obviously the most salient things in her mind that you don't feel like you can bring up in a second date. And afterwards there's this retrospective where he's trying to figure or he says why do you feel like you can share these things? And she's like, well, I have been sharing them, but my friends just say, divorce happens. It might seem like a big deal now, but you'll get over it.

Jake: 25:56

So this is one way that we invalidate Plotitudes invalidation through platitudes, exactly, or hey, you've got it bad, but other people have it worse and there's so many counter examples of how we invalidate in our conversations. But that one little sentence oh, that must be hard. Is like saying I see myself in your shoes, I see what that must be like, and it opens up and invites a space where a person can be safe to say it is hard and this is how.

Frank: 26:32

Yeah, that, what is the same thing? That what is the sins?

Jake: 26:38

Wow, that must be hard. I think what you're remembering is that throughout the book he goes through these five different aspects of validation and I think by the end there's this constructed sentence which is something like wow, what you're going through must be difficult. If I were going through that, if I were you, I'd feel the same way.

Frank: 27:04

Yeah, and there's something about the. I hear you that I'm remembering, but I don't. It definitely makes an I statement out of it which feels annoying to me. It doesn't feel great.

Jake: 27:22

Does it feel disingenuous? I wouldn't actually be feeling that way if I was in this situation.

Frank: 27:27

No, because I think I would. I'm really good at that. I can flip to their situation pretty fast as long as anyone I just I guess I don't want someone to say that to me. Oh okay, you know, if I'm like I'm struggling to lose weight, what would you say here?

Jake: 27:47

You mean like the?

Frank: 27:48

Yeah, do the thing yeah.

Jake: 27:51

Yeah, man, that that must be hard. If I were you, I'd be frustrated by that too.

Frank: 27:57

Yeah, what's that do for me? That's what it is. For me, the first half seemed better than the second half.

Jake: 28:04

Yeah, I think what it's supposed to do is say that it's okay to be feeling what you're feeling. It's got to lend like a normalizing aspect to it. Okay, you're not weird. Yeah, all right, I had this situation with you several months ago. You texted me and you were like hey man, I'm kind of like swimming in this situation there's emotions involved and having a hard time seeing through it and my response to you was something like okay, do you just want somebody to listen to you or are you looking for advice? And you were like I'm a man, damn it, I'm not looking like tell you my feelings, I want cold, hard solutions. And obviously you were.

Jake: 28:52

You were playing it up, you were joking, but it comes from a real place, especially as men, and I think that's, in a lot of ways, what keeps us from feeling like we can just express and let those emotions stand on their own. Yeah, which I heard this the other day in a video which was, you know, as men, feeling like we have to kind of keep it bottled up. Inside there was this statement from a woman who said I don't want my man to be more sensitive than I am, and the response from this guy was well, that's great, I get what you're saying, but if he can't be safe with you, then where can he be safe? And what about those moments that you come to him feeling sensitive? In order for him to love you completely, he has to be able to see a part of himself inside of you.

Jake: 29:45

If, every time that he feels sensitive, he gets shut down and has to bottle it up, how's he going to respond to that sensitive part of you? He's going to respond to it in the same way that he responds to himself. That internal narrative Just shut it down, suck it up, get over it. So I actually find that it's an interesting exercise, when someone's going through something, to try to put myself in that situation and just be like these aren't words, these aren't just words, it's not just I would be frustrated too. It's like I would. It's like I would be frustrated too.

Frank: 30:23

I really would. Yeah, I have no problem with it as truth, but it just seems like ground truth, like why are you? Why would I even say it? I'm, of course, sure. Whatever you, you're like man, I'm bald and it's really getting to me. I wish I could grow hair again and I'm supposed to say what Jake, that's really frustrating. I would. It would be hard for me to yeah, yeah, sure, it's true, sure.

Jake: 30:54

That is it. I mean it's. It's interesting because I feel it too. What you're talking about. Maybe I'm practicing right now. I feel it too. It feels worthless in some way. Yeah, it's. I've had this conversation with Noah before, when we're like why are we even talking? What's the point of talking? You already know what I'm gonna say. You actually already agree. We're in the same place.

Frank: 31:15

That's the most common conversation I have with Noah.

Jake: 31:18

I think Every conversation is the same, why are we even doing almost every time?

Frank: 31:23

we message each other. I feel like it ends with we agree, yep, we don't have.

Jake: 31:30

Right, so I can actually see that. So this actually is bringing up other questions in my mind which are like what's the point of conversation? What am I looking to get out of it? Why do I meet with you every morning, every Sunday morning, to talk about something?

Frank: 31:50

Yeah.

Jake: 31:52

Think it's not because I'm looking for Validation in this space. Probably what I'm looking for from you, as opposed to some others, is a different perspective. Sure, from you I'm not looking for it's okay, or confirmation bias or anything like that. I'm looking for, yeah, but have you looked at it this way? Maybe that's just the way that we use each other. Maybe that's the way we relate to each other.

Jake: 32:21

Yeah in other situations I Might go to someone and say I'm really struggling with this and Just hope that they give me the space to be that person.

Frank: 32:36

Yeah, nothing. I do this particular conversation mostly to Practice Active conversation and, like I, just the chosen counterparts are because I trust you like for sure. But I don't really come to get anything, I don't think yeah, I Wonder about that too.

Jake: 33:10

Though I was teaching my son a month ago or so, I was like, hey, you're in this situation right now and you need help, but you're just kind of Frustrated and you're just kind of whining about it. Yeah, how do you ask for help? And and he told me and he created this sentence where he asked me to help him get out of the situation, and I was like it's really important to ask for help when you need it. Everyone needs it. And he looked at me. I feel like I'm gonna cry right now and he said but you never asked for help, daddy.

Jake: 33:46

Yeah and I went Crap. So I mean I think that's probably a part of it too. We we're still growing in that.

Frank: 33:58

Yeah, how do you do it then I?

Jake: 34:05

Don't know.

Frank: 34:08

When will you start asking for help? Do you think I?

Jake: 34:13

Think I'm already Starting to look for those up. I think it's. I think it's just to begin with acknowledging situations in which I am not feeling great or something. I have to give myself that space first, and then I'm not gonna go out and search for someone else to validate it, but if, for instance, I'm feeling a certain way, well, actually, this is interesting. I hadn't thought about this, but I'll go. Couple months ago, I was frustrated by something and I was with my girlfriend and she noticed it right, and she's awesome about this. She's like hey, you seem distracted, what are you thinking about? And I was like, ah, it's this, it's whatever, it's not worth talking about. Just give me a few minutes, I'll get over it.

Frank: 35:16

I have an idea of what the thing was. Oh, do you All right, do I know what it is?

Jake: 35:21

I don't think so. Was I involved in?

Frank: 35:22

it.

Jake: 35:23

I don't know.

Frank: 35:24

Okay, Maybe I don't actually remember what the thing was. Okay, cool.

Jake: 35:28

It doesn't matter anyways. So I mentioned it and I said I'll get over it in a few minutes. And she was like, okay, if that's what you need. And then I went actually, would it be okay if I just voiced it? Would it be okay if I just talked out everything I'm frustrated about? It'll take five minutes. She's like, yeah, absolutely so I did. And by the end I saw it a little bit more clearly.

Jake: 35:56

It's like writing something up on a whiteboard you can just see the whole thing as opposed to trying to deal with it internally, and it was so much easier to diffuse the energy that was bundled up with that. So I think I'm probably starting in ways like that. Yeah, that's good. It's like allowing myself to be an inconvenience to someone else.

Frank: 36:21

Yeah, I wish you'd do it more to me. You can do it more if you want.

Jake: 36:25

All right, I'll try, I'm trying to.

Frank: 36:28

I think you are yeah, I don't mean anything by that, like I'm not deprived of it or something.

Jake: 36:34

I think you're just giving me an invitation, right, that's all I'm trying to do.

Frank: 36:37

Yeah, well, it's maybe more than that, even slightly. We don't even have to keep this in the podcast, I don't care about it. Sometimes it feels like a part of you is missing. Okay, because there must be something frustrating or something you need help with or something is missing.

Jake: 36:59

Okay, yeah. So, this is not the first time I've heard this.

Frank: 37:02

Yeah, and I'm sure that it's the same on your side Sometimes, if you were to pay attention to it at least, because I am like the last person to observe something in my environment that's frustrating me and talk about it.

Jake: 37:18

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Frank: 37:19

Yeah, so we could probably both benefit from doing more of that.

Jake: 37:24

I agree. I agree. Something I've been doing a little bit more is just trying to engage in general, whether it's positive, negative, whatever it's like. Hey, you and Brandi are hanging out in the living room. I'm gonna walk over and say, hey, yeah, as opposed to I don't know. I was in like a self-protective space for a while and it was like I can't even take the chance that this conversation will go somewhere else. I just I've got other things to deal with right now internally.

Frank: 37:55

Definitely. I don't know. I automatically think about this a lot and sort of suppress it sometimes because it's a waste of energy. But, like even in work conversations, I'm like there are 100,000 problems for us to solve. This meeting is on the calendar because of one that is number 99,000. And in everyone's salience right now is an issue number three and so we all keep going back to it. Should we let it be? Should we talk about number three or number 90,000? What should we do here? Should we protect the integrity of the meaning of this meeting? Sure, Should we not. Yeah, there's no time for the meeting for issue number three because we have all these 90,000 issues on the calendar. What do we do? And I don't think dedicating energy to that problem maybe is the right answer.

Jake: 39:01

But you know, I don't know where this is gonna go, but I have an idea, so I'm gonna talk about it. Yeah, Organizations are sort of like a personality in the macro. It's like if you take a human and you blow it way up, you've got the emotions department, you've got the logic department, you've got the hobbies and interest department, whatever, and they're all working together and sometimes they're in conflict. The goal is for them to be in harmony. That would be great, right? So when I think about the organization and this particular thing is salient, well, why do things become salient? They become salient because either one situation had such a massive effect on you that you can't stop thinking about it. You're like how was that such a surprise that it should not be a surprise? We have to make this not a surprise next time. Or it's because it keeps popping up across these hundred other facets. It's like, wow, number 99 is connected, number 729 is connected, and so number three keeps popping up.

Jake: 40:14

In either case, if I think about that in terms of an organizational health, or if I think about that in terms of a human individual's health, it's probably worth looking at, Like, what is the underlying thread? And yeah, when you get to the end of that sort of analysis. Sometimes it is worth it. It's like economies of scale in some way. It's like, yeah, if we fix this one thing, a hundred other things are gonna benefit. Or if we fix this one thing because it's all I can think about right now, because it was so scary, but the likelihood of it happening again is near zero, okay, maybe we should pay attention to those other things instead. Yeah, I can see that on both levels.

Frank: 41:00

Yeah, I mean this is the pros and cons of active listening on some level. If you show up to the person or meeting and you give them control, you may have to suppress your salience or whatever. It's really hard to talk about this as an organization at the same time as an individual conversation.

Jake: 41:23

but I think there's something else going on here, though, and that is what you said is true to some degree. But when you are active listening, you're also accruing a certain currency of trust. When I say I'm giving you the space to talk and I'm going to show you that I'm actively listening, that you are the priority and that what I have to say is gonna take second place, that there's trust there.

Frank: 41:53

Yeah.

Jake: 41:54

And when we feel as though that conversation has come to a place where the person has kind of done venting or whatever.

Frank: 42:04

Yeah.

Jake: 42:05

There's this moment where and he talks about this in the book you can ask hey, I feel like I've got a perspective or some advice that might be helpful. Would it be okay if I gave that to you? And that's the important thing. Right Is asking for that consent, because maybe the person does not want that right. All they wanted was that. But if you do feel as though you've got something, you have now a trust account that you can kind of exchange here and you might be able to say I know this was really surprising and I would have been surprised too, right, but I'm wondering, if you looked at it this way, if it might help you to move forward into tomorrow and I think that's the cost of admission to some degree. Is that active listening? Yeah, the goal wasn't to get to a place where you could manipulate them to do what you wanted them to do or anything. It was all genuine.

Frank: 43:06

Yeah.

Jake: 43:07

But you do have that in your back pocket if you need it, yeah.

Frank: 43:12

I mean, it feels hard sometimes to suppress salience about like I don't even know about the solution. Necessarily. That feels like super driven compared to what I'm thinking about, which is, let's say, you're talking about active listening and in my mind there is this I mean it's a solution to something, but it's definitely not the solution to your problem of this AI augmented validation tool. I'm not like Jake we can't have this conversation, man, because we don't have the tool yet. We need the tool. That's the solution to the problem. That's not really what it is, but it is going to pull away from your thread if I bring it up. And what do you do there? Suppress it.

Jake: 44:02

It depends on the situation. Right and for later, you totally had full consent to go wherever you wanted to. Yeah, I know If I had been telling you about this new trauma that I uncovered from what my mom did when I was six years old or whatever, yeah.

Frank: 44:20

What'd she do?

Jake: 44:20

Yeah, I think you probably would have suppressed it Like, yeah, just hold on a second, though Wait, wait, wait, because I just had the idea of the future AI augmented trauma.

Frank: 44:30

Yeah, that's true. Anyways, that's what you got to do.

Jake: 44:37

That's it.

Frank: 44:38

Let's do that, what we talked about, and everything gets better. Is that true? Active?

Jake: 44:44

listening, I think to use a biblical metaphor like that book. I hear you about validation and active listening.

Frank: 44:54

Is a biblical metaphor.

Jake: 44:58

Is like giving fertilizer to a tree, and good fruit is going to come from a good tree. Is it going to make your life better?

Frank: 45:07

Well, yeah.

Jake: 45:08

It's not going to change everything about your life, but wow, yes, it's going to be a seed that you're planting.

Frank: 45:17

Yeah, exactly. So well, what I always say is that you should do what you think is cool, and so people are going to talk about what they think is cool, and you can help them do it if you know what they're doing, what they like, and active listening seems like one of the best ways to help each other flourish. So it's going to make their trees grow 100%.

Jake: 45:45

And the other thing that can't really be discounted is that, even if you are one of the first in your social group to do that, don't undervalue what it is to model that behavior. When you start doing it and people start feeling seen, they may want to make other people feel seen as well.

Frank: 46:08

Yeah, yeah it makes us all flourish together with an A.

Jake: 46:14

Heck, yeah, all right, thanks Tupys, thanks Tupys.