Have you ever wondered if the nostalgic hiss of analog tape could compete with the crystal-clear sound of today's podcast technology? We kick things off with a playful debate that's not only for audiophiles but anyone curious about the blend of old charm and new tech. Then, we meander through the digital landscape of Reddit, revealing its surprising role in connecting us amidst our tech-saturated lives. As we share stories that range from algorithmic trust to the simple joy of neighborhood compliments, we also unpack the Enneagram's wisdom on nurturing our interpersonal relationships, and why shared adventures just might be the key to understanding one another better.
Navigating the nuanced world of communication, our episode takes a deep look into the dynamics between Enneagram Type Five with a Four-wing and Type Eight personalities. If you've ever felt perplexed by the dance of competency and control in conversations, our discussion unveils strategies for bridging gaps with clarity. We dissect workplace dialogue, the art of expressing ideas without stepping on toes, and the pivotal role of empathy. This isn't just about getting through the 9-to-5; it's about forging connections that honor both our need for intellectual stimulation and our shared humanity.
Lastly, we confront the flawed nature of job titles and the hiring maze with a critical eye. It's a conversation that questions whether a checklist approach to applications truly captures the essence of a candidate's potential. We advocate for a shift in perspective, highlighting the magic of creativity and adaptability in an era often too focused on specific tool experience. Tune in as we peel back the layers on ambiguous job titles, the pitfalls of our hiring processes, and the profound impact a splash of flexibility could have on the job market. Whether you're an employer, job seeker, or just fascinated by the evolving workforce, this episode promises a fresh take on the world of work.
Have you ever wondered if the nostalgic hiss of analog tape could compete with the crystal-clear sound of today's podcast technology? We kick things off with a playful debate that's not only for audiophiles but anyone curious about the blend of old charm and new tech. Then, we meander through the digital landscape of Reddit, revealing its surprising role in connecting us amidst our tech-saturated lives. As we share stories that range from algorithmic trust to the simple joy of neighborhood compliments, we also unpack the Enneagram's wisdom on nurturing our interpersonal relationships, and why shared adventures just might be the key to understanding one another better.
Navigating the nuanced world of communication, our episode takes a deep look into the dynamics between Enneagram Type Five with a Four-wing and Type Eight personalities. If you've ever felt perplexed by the dance of competency and control in conversations, our discussion unveils strategies for bridging gaps with clarity. We dissect workplace dialogue, the art of expressing ideas without stepping on toes, and the pivotal role of empathy. This isn't just about getting through the 9-to-5; it's about forging connections that honor both our need for intellectual stimulation and our shared humanity.
Lastly, we confront the flawed nature of job titles and the hiring maze with a critical eye. It's a conversation that questions whether a checklist approach to applications truly captures the essence of a candidate's potential. We advocate for a shift in perspective, highlighting the magic of creativity and adaptability in an era often too focused on specific tool experience. Tune in as we peel back the layers on ambiguous job titles, the pitfalls of our hiring processes, and the profound impact a splash of flexibility could have on the job market. Whether you're an employer, job seeker, or just fascinated by the evolving workforce, this episode promises a fresh take on the world of work.
all right, you want to do an analog podcast today.
Noah:Analog, just turn the mics off and do an analog I'm trying to think about analog distribution yeah, brandy requests a tape via mail, I guess today we're talking about analog distribution of podcasts.
Frank:It's a very niche subject.
Noah:We have cds are digital, yeah I know so we have to go to tape.
Frank:Is tape analog? Yeah, I guess it is yeah, I guess it is yeah, tape or that's. I guess that's the new, that's the most new analog audio right.
Noah:I guess I mean it's not compressed or anything, but I don't know.
Frank:Analog audio options.
Noah:Yeah, they're analog tapes.
Frank:Yeah, I had to think about it for a second.
Noah:It doesn't feel like analog because it's waves, but it's analog.
Frank:Is digital or analog audio output better? This is a Reddit on the audio file Reddit thread thing.
Noah:The world's going to be okay, but it doesn't look like it often.
Frank:Reddit never makes you feel like anything's okay. I mean I wouldn't call myself a Redditor. I've been on Reddit. I mean a sum total of six minutes in my life, maybe.
Noah:Really.
Frank:I don't Reddit. Every time I get on it seems like it's a disaster.
Noah:Yeah, I mean I've said before it's the last bastion of human connection. When Reddit goes away, it's all computers bastion of human connection. When reddit goes away, it's all computers.
Frank:Um, but I often if I want to search for something that has an element of human in it, I I search with reddit at the end of the search I do click on reddit results sometimes when I'm looking for a specific answer to a question that maybe a person yeah, you know, some random person who's dealt with the same problem has. But seriously, my sum total on Reddit over my life maybe five or six minutes. Nice, that might. It might be more than that, but it can't be much more.
Noah:Yeah, it's the place to find answers to questions like this large technology company app doesn't work. Uh, anyone else?
Frank:yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Noah:Something very specific, right apple wallet won't, let me put my card in oh, no, anyone else.
Frank:the right place for that. Hey look, you got it done. No, I have some things. Some things. It will. Let me put my wallet in.
Noah:That's a good sign, man.
Frank:It decides. You know it's like. I'll let you add one more every six months.
Noah:No, it is. It's a trust factor decision. Yeah, they're starting to trust you.
Frank:Where is? I don't know where it's at, do you? Use texting now more often with amy or anything no, I don't text amy almost at all when I'm here, oh okay uh, when she's here.
Noah:Like traditional text messages are a big part of their trust score algorithm and traditional phone calls. Do you make phone calls now? No, I mean only to my mom huh, that probably helps, but I have keep calling.
Frank:Call your mom yeah, I have the active cash in there and I have my sofi debit and I have.
Noah:You don't have your sofi credit or you don't have I don't have a sofi credit card this is three percent. Still, man, that card's been 3% for like two years now.
Frank:Yeah.
Noah:I've thought about it, but I just don't need it. Well, all right, we warmed up. What do you want to talk about today?
Frank:I don't know. We're without Jake, so we really have to try hard, I think, if we pick a topic. Today is Easter and Jake, being the most religious of the three of us, really needed to have the day off.
Noah:Yeah, I think he's meeting with his mom to discuss the apocalypse.
Frank:I hope he's having a nice resurrection.
Noah:What are we going to talk about? What do you think about life? In what way?
Frank:Well, I don't know how's unwrapping the presents going? Unveiling, yeah, how's the unveiling going? I, I enjoy it. I'm having, uh, it's really nice having. I mean, maybe that's a good topic. I don't know what the topic would be, necessarily, but the fact that I, you know, have been solo for a long time and now I'm living with a person.
Noah:You manifest a hoe.
Frank:Yeah, we're, we walked. So Amy wanted to make a marquesa for brandy for her birthday and we needed ingredients, um, so we walked to deer. It was a very nice day, so we walked over to deerberg's and we're walking in my neighborhood and this, uh, this car with a couple of black ladies drives past us and slows down and she sticks her head out the window the passenger and she goes girl, you wearing that dress I like it.
Frank:That's the whole story, yeah i't know, there was something you said that made me think of that story, but it was great. We've been failing, yeah.
Noah:This is what it's like when a five and an eight try to connect. What would we do to improve that?
Frank:I made a Marquesa last night after watching that line I get destroyed.
Noah:That helps us connect.
Frank:No.
Noah:What if we wanted to improve our 5-8 connection? What would we do? What if other people were like I'm a 5, I'm an 8, I wish I had a better connection with my 5-8 friend, whatever, whichever other one.
Frank:I honestly think the best way is for us to go both find our seven, and I don't mean jake, oh really, yeah, you're probably right because, like, go to st louis and have an adventure.
Frank:I've said this before the five for me is a bad place, it is. It is, I think, the biggest place we butt heads is because when you are very five, which is fine for you, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying when you are very, you, okay, sure. When you are very, you, okay, sure. Um, it feels like a place that feels unhealthy to me, because that's my experience with the five I'm, I have, I go to five and in on health.
Frank:yeah, and when you're very analytical and information seeking and trying, you know what I mean like it feels like just a kind of a gross place for me, sure.
Noah:Yeah, I mean I think you, I mean I think everyone does this, but like you, sort of paint with broad strokes, uh types with others. I mean I don't mean you, I mean like all people do this. But I think information seeking for me is not a state so much as a structure or something. It's like how I see the world.
Frank:Right, but it's a structure for me when I'm unhealthy.
Noah:Yeah, it's a state for you, right.
Frank:Well, I mean, you can put whatever word you want on it.
Noah:You go to. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a the thing you describe as a state. Uh, the way it is, the way it feels to me yeah, maybe, and for me it's, I mean I can get there. And it feels unhealthy to me too if I'm just constantly seeking information is eight your health, or just health, health, okay.
Frank:so that's probably a little bit better for you than to like like I'm trying to see if you like you respond the same way to me. But it would be Health, health, okay. So that's probably a little bit better for you than to like like I'm trying to see if you like you respond the same way to me but it would be.
Noah:The only thing is that sometimes, to meet your energy, I have to go there when it doesn't feel healthy. Yeah, that makes sense Like cause. I would rather disengage, yeah, and you would rather be a jackass. So I have to meet you at jackass land.
Frank:Jake's a jackass, too. Frank's a jackass.
Noah:Yeah, I have to be sometimes. In this case, I had to meet you with eight energy and call you a jackass so that you felt engaged. See how you're smiling now.
Frank:I'm laughing because they called Jake a jackass.
Noah:No, you're laughing because you got eight energy.
Frank:It felt really nice to call jake a jackass. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, because that's your eightness, yeah. So anyway, I I think, going all the way back to the beginning of this, I think the best place for us to connect is probably in our seven, because I have a seven wing and you go to seven in this health I mean, I don't think of yeah, for sure, if I'm in this health, seven is most likely to express what's your, what what's your wing?
Frank:I don't know if I've ever talked to you about what your wing is yeah, I think it's four. I don't really identify with the six, so it's probably four okay, I'm surprised you haven't given more thought to that, like it's surprising that you didn't have an answer right away like oh, this is my wing is there a reason that you haven't?
Noah:put thought into it um, I don't, no, there isn't a good way that there isn't, I just haven't thought about it much. Interesting, I think it's because a four is so close to a five that it's like the same thing. I lump them or something. I'm definitely I wouldn't definitely a five wing four. I wouldn't think a four is close to five. Shall we do a number line again.
Frank:I mean in the personality traits.
Noah:The five, wing four is the healthiest five available. They're the most likely to be able to bridge the mind heart connection. Uh, um, yeah, that's me. I just don't know why I haven't thought about this a lot, but probably because someone I heard someone talk about it at some point and I was like, oh yeah, that's definitely me.
Frank:Or maybe maybe it is that like definitely me. Or maybe maybe it is that like you would be able to answer this question way more, because I think it's way more about you than it is me, probably, but maybe it is the eight is the best place we can connect, because it is who I am and it's your health. It's your healthy place like I've never heard of. I've never heard the enneagram to spoke spoken about in this particular way, like where is the best place for two numbers to connect?
Frank:yeah, it's kind of an interesting thought um, I mean crystal nose has it there's lots of like how these numbers interact, but specifically talking about where the best place for those two to connect yeah, how can fives and eights communicate effectively with each other?
Noah:Fives are motivated by the desire to feel useful and competent, while eights are driven by the need to remain in control of their own lives. Fives should be direct and clear when addressing eights. Eights should be calm and concise around fives, allowing them plenty of space to recharge. So leave me alone is the best way.
Frank:I try to leave everybody alone.
Noah:Eights should listen closely to fives without interrupting. They should express their own viewpoint calmly. That would probably be like if I could give you any advice on how to connect with me. That's like the direct opposite of what is most distressing about a relationship with you. What? Eights should listen closely to fives without interrupting. They should express their own viewpoint calmly. That's a really good line. It's interesting because you say this a lot about me interrupting. They should express their own viewpoint calmly. That's a really good line.
Frank:It's interesting because you say this a lot about me interrupting, but I don't actually feel like I interrupt that much anymore. I could see younger Noah doing that?
Noah:Yeah, I wasn't saying you do it. I was saying that it's the most disabling thing about a relationship with an eight. I mean that makes sense. You know, rather than like hear what you're saying. They'll sometimes say things like you just always think you're right.
Frank:Oh, you do. You have said it on the podcast.
Noah:Right, but that would be the opposite of listen calmly without interrupting, and express your own viewpoint calmly.
Frank:I once said on the podcast you think you're always right and you went yeah, I am.
Noah:I remember it was a joke.
Frank:This is akin to Jake being, jake being morally flawless. I know.
Noah:Fives tend to trust aides who are rational, and election and intellectual aides should give fives plenty of personal space. Aides are likely to trust fives who can be open and firm. Five should engage in occasional debate or discussion of an interesting issue. We've never done that.
Frank:Nothing's interesting I honestly just think every conversation is the same I know and like I said, I'm not even against it. I just think that we spend a lot of time as human beings trying to differentiate things that are all the same yeah, it says.
Noah:Fives bring knowledge and deep thinking to a workplace. They can help.
Frank:Eights consider multiple ideas before making a decision my one caveat and please don't get offended my one caveat here is that you will say this is the correct choice, instead of saying here are the choices.
Noah:Very often, no, but I understand why you would feel that way, because I will often present an idea that I think as best without additional context, which you might interpret, as this is the only way no, I don't.
Frank:I don't ever interpret it as it's the only way I interpret it, as this is the decision I've made, like what I don't know. I don't have a good example off the top of my head, but it happens quite a bit. It happens too in the way you speak about, like not even related to me, but like when I hear you philosophical things or something?
Frank:well, philosophical things or like work situations or I don't want to get into, I don't want to talk about your work situations on the podcast, but you'll present things like these. People are all wrong often.
Noah:All wrong. Yeah, I've never said that.
Frank:You don't say I said you presented. But I do understand work frustrations and I have similar feelings sometimes. Yeah, I just feel like the way you present them oftentimes are like can you believe these wrong people?
Noah:I share something in the context you're talking about. It is because it delighted me how ridiculous it is. Delighted, delighted.
Frank:Thank you.
Noah:That's what I said the first time. I think you can go back and listen to. It is Delighted, delighted. Thank you, that's what I said the first time I think you can go back and listen to it later. Yeah, it's because it delighted me. Something about it was entertaining or enjoyable. Sure, just how far from the mark the thing is.
Frank:I know.
Noah:It's usually not because I'm so frustrated. I need a vent or something, probably because of the ridiculousness of the scenario. It seems like that I am trying to vent or deal with the frustration, or I really truly think everyone's an idiot or something. What I do think often is this.
Noah:This is where we can connect I know you think that and that's probably why you default to thinking that I'm in a closed box about this, which I'm not. I usually I have very high empathy and when I read someone's email, I'm like they don't have any idea, they don't work in this world, they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, they sent me some random thing and it cracked me up, so I shared it yeah, I actually don't I do.
Frank:The people that frustrate me are the people who, as long as you, show a willingness to learn or get better yeah or a willingness to to admit that you don't know or that you're wrong or whatever. All the empathy in the world, it's the people who are like set on what they're saying and they're so incredibly wrong about it that it's like I can't even. Yeah, and there are so many of those people.
Frank:Really yeah, yeah I know very few or people. Here's the other one that has come up for me a couple times recently with my boss and with my mom Two separate sources, but similar thing. I asked him with my mom to two separate sources, but similar thing which is asking me my opinion or what to do, or like asking my input on something and then completely ignoring it. Oh yeah, drives me insane. Like why did you ask me? If you just like, if you were just going to do whatever you wanted to do anyway, then just do it. I don't. It's not even about the doing. It's about all the time that we spent having the conversation about what the right thing might be. Yeah, for them to just go, that doesn't matter.
Noah:Well. So I have a question about this, because I think sometimes these problems feel real but the actual thing is like two layers above it or something. But when that happened like, say, I came to you for advice and then I didn't do it, but before I didn't do it I came back and said hey man, I really considered your advice and I appreciate it and I'm going to go a different way how would that feel? Would that feel better?
Frank:Maybe it depends on what the thing is. Yeah it.
Noah:I don't have a good example that I really want to talk about on a podcast oh sure, I'm just curious if the the thing is that they ignored it or if the thing is that they here's the other discarded well here's the other, maybe variable, I'll throw in.
Frank:It's usually something that they don't know anything about, so, like they have, the coming to me is hey, listen, I don't know anything about this thing. Yeah, what's the right thing to do? Essentially, like, what would you do here? Or like and why? You give a very detailed explanation as to it, and then they do something that is so far off from that and you're like well, what was the point? Of sure, trying to figure it out then, like, if you were just going to do the thing that didn't make any sense in the first place. Right, it's that it's not the like, informed. Hey, I'd like another opinion here. It's like I don't know anything about this thing. Can you help me?
Noah:And then you help them and they're like eh, sure, yeah, yeah, their house is burning down. And they're like I don't know what to do in this situation, like get the fire extinguisher and spray it at the fire, and they're like. I went swimming Gasoline.
Frank:I went swimming instead. Right, exactly. So it's those uh, and, and it's not just those two people, but those are those I had on the same day. I had a very frustrating day, and both of those human beings, sure uh, were didn't do the thing did. It was the same situation with different people essentially, and I was like I don't even know what the point of relationships is that that's a very five um attribute for sure I was being dramatic, but but, it's just interesting, but it drives me crazy.
Frank:I don't think for talking about the being right thing. I actually think I'm very open to being wrong and I almost never think I'm right. Yeah, I'm very. Everything is very great for me and I'm I love to learn. I'm open to learning. I think learning through mistakes is depending on what the situation is, but I think learning through mistakes is one of the best ways to learn things. Um, in what I do in marketing, one of the things I do like about it is that it's very scientific. It's like, hey, let's change a variable and see how things respond, instead of like, hey, this is the right way to do it, and that in marketing. That frustrates me when people are like no, this is how we do this thing. I have a couple of clients who come from a branding background and I understand branding.
Frank:I understand why it's important.
Noah:Yeah, clients who come from a branding background, and I understand branding.
Frank:I understand why it's important, yeah, but it blinds them to so many other factors in marketing because they're like everything's about the brand, yeah, and I don't want to discount the importance of that, but they just turn off to so many other things because they're like no, that doesn't speak to this particular persona or something. Do you know what I mean? It's like okay, I think you're missing the mark a little bit here, yeah, but anyway, going back to this idea of being right or being wrong, however you want to look at it, I'm very open to being wrong I just think that the thing that frustrates me is the lack of consideration of the options from some people sometimes, or the lack of exploration, maybe, or something.
Noah:Yeah, I think there's a thing that probably we both deal with, which is that sometimes people don't actually want the answer, they just wanted to talk or something. And then we provide, like I know, I feel like I'm like, oh, I provided them the perfect advice for that scenario and then they completely disregarded it because they weren't there for advice. They were just there to connect with a human or something. And I'm like, why would people do this, why would people connect?
Noah:If you're going to connect, why would we use words or something? And I'm like why would people do this? Why would people connect? Why, if you're going to connect, why would we use words or something? If you're like, or at least choose words that mean nothing, like how do you think of the weather? Don't ask me about a real problem in your life, because I will think about it and solve it for you and help you. Yeah, and you're going to ignore it because it was talking about the weather to you or something.
Frank:Yeah for sure I don't know. Anyway, I like being wrong, I think being wrong is great and I think openness to being wrong is one of the best ways to be right.
Noah:I heard some clip the other day that was about three types of conversation. It's like the problem solving conversation, connection conversation. There's one other type, yeah, but if you're having a problem solving conversation with a person who's trying to have a connection conversation, this is like the most common male female problem, I think yeah I think I certainly have a default.
Noah:I'm like oh, you're talking to me, you would like me to help you with something, but that isn't the case. Oftentimes, someone's just talking because they talk, it's like a feature of them as a person, and the words don't mean anything. They don't mean anything logical, they don't have to have a solution, they're not input for resolving or something I think that happens in job like for people who are hiring.
Frank:I think they get so focused on the role of, like, the, the actual job duties of a role, and so then they just start trying to plug things in like basically, you know, completing fields in a in a job description yeah, as opposed to going, okay, who's the right person, who's the right whole person for this thing and who can think in a way to make this even better? Right, it's more about checking boxes and it drives me insane, but that, to me, feels very similar as some of the things that I've brought up, like the Like the clients who have branding backgrounds, who miss all the other things over here, or the person who asks for advice on a thing they don't understand, only to do the other thing. These all feel like the same thing to me.
Noah:Yeah, well, I have a current like. It's literally on my intentions today to do a job description to finish so it can get posted next week, and all the blanks are just as you describe. There's comments all over the document that are like please update this, what should the degree be in? What should the right, Whatever skills be? And all I wanted to say is that I need an enneagram seven. That's what I want the job posting to be well, right, but it's.
Frank:I mean not to discount experience and stuff, but when you look at, I was listening to um I think it was a human podcast recently about memory and you listen to all the research on memory and stuff and we don't remember anything. We just human beings. We don't remember the things that are like when you go to school and you learn things over the course of a degree. You don't remember most of that. The things that you quote unquote remember are the things that you do on a regular basis, and so I just don't think that education counts for that much. I just don't think that experience matters more, especially if it's in a specific thing that you're going to be doing. Sure, it matters, but I think overall, like a broad stroke of experience in a field like software development I don't know that might be a bad example, but marketing, like if you say I'm we need marketing experience that can mean a billion things.
Frank:Yeah, and what do I need you to do in this role? Or logistics? I worked in logistics. I mean, I worked with a bunch of people who didn't know anything about transportation, they didn't know anything about logistics. They worked in that field for 15 or 20 years.
Frank:Broad strokes, when you're talking about things, doesn't count for a lot, and we try to pin these things down as opposed to going. How can this person solve problems? How can this person think outside the box? How can this person solve problems? How can this person think outside the box? How can this person be creative? How can this person make our company better or whatever, make this role better?
Frank:Instead, we want to go well, did you get this degree? Have you done this for 15 years? They even tell you to write a resume based on the job description. Work in the things they put in the resume to get past the stupid ats system. So it's like, okay, make sure that you mention web development, make sure you mention, uh, social media marketing. Make sure you mention this, this and this, and you may not have even really done it, but you're going to mention it. You're going to get through because you said all the right words. Yeah, and now, who have you eliminated because they didn't want to make it seem like they did something they didn't do? It just all seems ridiculous to me.
Frank:And yet I understand that many of these places have hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants that they have to sort through. I understand there's a problem on the other side too. I get it, yeah, but it just seems like we need to figure out a better system for that yeah, I don't look forward to that, um, I haven't dealt with that yet.
Noah:But, uh, personally, like but I have seen other job postings that we've made just get, yeah, 10 000 applicants or something, um, and I can't wait until that happens to me, just can't wait that, because they're all going to be for a thing that isn't really the thing I want to be, but it's just the system that like, ultimately, I want someone who has a lot of energy, a three or seven probably, um, who wants to talk a lot and who can understand complex things. So they should be able to like answer the question of how do you suppose this table was made? And if they they just get lost or stuck or they can't conceptualize how this table might have been made, they're probably not the right person. And if they seem to be tired when I talk to them, they're the wrong person. Yeah, those are the two job factors I care about. Yep, can you conceptualize a system in your head and can you have energy? The system in your head and can you have energy?
Frank:so talk to me about, because I think one of the other issues in hiring I don't know how I shouldn't have brought up. This is why I said I. I have so many thoughts and I don't know if they all connect and what if I should talk about them. Yeah, because now we're talking about hiring people which is humans connected.
Frank:Yeah, but, um, one of the other factors here is that the first sort of level usually within organizations that you have to get through as a as a applicant, is an HR person who doesn't really know what that role pertains and like, pertains is probably not the right word, but you understand, um, and so you're relying on these, these people who don't actually do the thing that the person needs to do, that don't actually supervise the thing that the person they have nothing to do with.
Frank:They have no idea, except for what you've told them and the job distribution you've given them. Yeah, and they're supposed to be the first line of defense against the people who just don't work.
Noah:Well, it's. And in large organizations, there's also another part of the problem which you maybe are conceptually aware of. But you come to the hr department with a requisition request so, so to speak, like, I need a person to do this, and the first thing they do is say, okay, let's find a job type that it fits into, so we can assign a salary band and whatever. And yeah, so you're like, well, they need to do this. And they're like, oh, is it a data analyst? And you're like, no, it's not a data analyst. They're like, oh, is it a project manager? No, it's not a project manager. Okay, it must be a senior software engineer, right? No, that's not it either. And then they're like, okay, I found the perfect one, and it's customer logistics professional, two or something. And you're like, okay, can we call it something different than that? Right, because no one's applying for that. Um, can we call it something different?
Frank:than that, Because no one's blind for that. Right, and you're. Here's the sort of like OD side of things. Which drives me insane is the titles that we create. Don't like everything you should. Everything you do should be with that applicant in mind, like helping the applicant's career. Like, ideally, this doesn't happen. Sure, Ideally, if I'm going to hire somebody, I should go. How can I help this person in their career If they want to move on from here, which is a hard place to think about, because you're trying to hire them and you're at some point you need to think about okay, if they move on, how can I have made their career path better? Right, Really is where you should start Calling them logistics professional. Two is not helping them because nobody knows. I had a position called freight merchandiser on my resume. What does that mean? Nobody knows what that means. That was actually a logistics position that they named that way because it was. We were, I worked at an ag company and merchandising was a very popular term in in ag.
Frank:So they wanted consistency within the organization, so they named the title of that, but it means nothing to anyone outside of that organization yeah so if you put that on your resume, anyone who sees it goes well, I don't know what that is, but it doesn't sound like what I, what I need, yeah, and you're automatically behind right and the same thing with I mean I, they had that same organization, had a lot of clerk too, or things like this, which don't mean anything.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:And, yeah, this is a this is a massive problem, because you're not helping anyone in this scenario. You're not even helping yourself in this scenario, because who is going to apply for that? Who wants that job? Who's going to understand what that job is?
Noah:Yeah Well, the classing of positions is always. I don't. I've never seen it do anything good for literally anyone. Yeah, I'm. I still work as a consultant for a large company and there, um, my outlook says I'm the director of analytics, which I never was, I would like to point out. But to this day, when I join a meeting for them, everyone on the meeting thinks I'm the director of analytics. That's great. And so they ask me analytics type questions sometimes which I have to be like like I don't know who does that here by the way, I'm not actually.
Noah:It has nothing to do with my role as a consultant on this project yeah, well, and then there are other.
Frank:There are other title issues that come from just responsibilities. So my title where I'm at now is project manager and I am that for sure, right? But I'm also operations manager and I'm also an account manager and I'm also sometimes content creator and sometimes you know what I mean. I'm so many things.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:And even if I want to apply for something else, even the title project manager doesn't necessarily help me getting an operations job.
Noah:No, it helps you only if you're targeting a project management job Correct, it can help you.
Frank:And then if I want to target an operations management job which maybe I have good experience for, I have to convince them somehow without lying about my title. I have to convince them that I have the proper experience, even though my title this is the same problem I had with freight merchandiser.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:And they later changed it to carrier sales reps, which isn't much better, no. And now essentially that job was project management in logistics. Yeah, but I didn't even have that as a title. I couldn't really say, hey, my title was project manager. I had to convince people listen. I did project management for seven years in logistics, but we just didn't call it that Right. You know what I mean.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:And it's not as easy as you think. Like people who give like resume advice and like cover letter advice and stuff. They try to make it sound like, well, you just have to convince them. And I'm like I mean, I say all the things but they still, at the end of the day, go. But you did freight merchandising. You know what I mean. Yeah, it's just awful what we do to our employees sometimes.
Noah:Yeah Well, the only. As a branding it's super valuable. That's the titles. I mean anything, a structured approach to who you are as a company or as a person Sure Does have value in creating like consistency and whatever. The pillars of branding are Something and something else. It even hurt.
Frank:It even hurt internally for promotions, because the same thing happened Like if I wanted to go to a different department yeah. Uh, they have the same issues. They didn't understand what that was. Yeah, they had internal people they could speak to about my work or whatever it's a little bit more helpful, but they still had no idea what I did. They still had no idea what that title meant. They still had no idea anything about my job. It was still a complete like.
Noah:I've got to convince you that my experience translates well, that's the the thing that's bad, like it is so good for so many reasons, because there is value in this sort of consistency, but humans are not likely to want to do the exact same thing for their entire life, and so that is that's the worst part of it is like I was a zebra tamer and then I became zebra tamer two, zebra tamer three. Now I'm a senior zebra tamer right, but I don't like zebras anymore because it's been 15 years of zebra tamer.
Frank:Yeah, well, can we? Here's another thing about hiring that drives me insane is, in the day and age that we live in, uh, where technology advances so quickly and we're we're using a new tool every year to do something. We want to make sure you have the exact experience and the tools that we use drives me insane. I can learn how to use a CRM. I can learn how to use this PLM. I can learn how to use whatever you need me to learn. I do not need to have used Oracleacle for 20 years yeah to be able to use oracle in this job.
Frank:Do you know what I'm saying?
Noah:like there are, special tools, but it's not the ones that get listed on job like do you know how to use microsoft word? Come on, I mean, who cares?
Frank:I don't think that happens. I mean, you will see excel and I do understand spreadsheets are a little bit more complex. But even that, listen, I don't use spreadsheets for any like super complex functions in what I do right now I use it all day long, right, right, right I have for certain things in the past.
Frank:What I do right now I don't use. I use excel every day, but I don't. Or I use google sheets usually, but I use it every day, but I don't use it for any super complex functions. But if I were to get a data analyst job tomorrow, I promise you I'll figure out what I need to figure out.
Noah:Right.
Frank:It's this idea that you need to come in knowing all of the functions today or you're going to be a failure is ridiculous.
Noah:Well, the thing I mean I've worked in enough places to see the large organizations do this thing where they say, like you must have JIRA experience and you must have office 365 experience. And then you don't use it or they migrate it because they find a cheaper one. So you got everyone who has all this experience with JIRA. Then you switch to using Notion yeah or something like that. For sure, another one of those like that's not the right yeah, project management tool.
Frank:I see that a lot on project management Like must have a sauna experience and I'm like why?
Noah:Yeah, well, I mean, there are good, like I will say, JIRA. I'm better than most people who I ever interact with at using jira. Uh-huh, um, like I watch people use it all the time and I'm like, what are you doing? Why are you clicking on stuff? Yeah, everything has a keyboard shortcut there. You can query for anything in jira, like sometimes I. I was on a meeting this week. I was watching someone use jira. You can query for anything in JIRA, like sometimes I. I was on a meeting this week. I was watching someone use JIRA, like at 0.02% of the capacity that's possible. They were just one by one going into tickets and moving them from status to status and I'm like I moved the rest of those. Let's do something different now.
Frank:Yeah Well. And for like, for instance, I moved the rest of those. Let's do something different now, yeah Well. And for instance, I've done a very basic SQL training. I don't know SQL, I have done it. I've done some SQL queries. I understand the concept.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:But if I got a new job tomorrow that required me to do SQL, to regularly use SQL or r or something like I'm gonna, I'm gonna know how to do it. It might take me a couple weeks to get up to speed, but I'm gonna know how to do it and the same as any other human being that does it regularly, they're gonna know how to do it.
Frank:Anyone who's had 10 years of experience using sequel they only learned because they did it yeah if you hire somebody who doesn't have a ton of sequel experience but they're good at the rest of the stuff, they're gonna figure out sequel you know what I mean definitely if you have to do it every day for your job, you'll figure it out.
Frank:I don't think that's untrue of almost everyone like the, like the. There are a few dense people who just struggle to get things, who struggle to learn things, who struggle with technical tools or whatever. I mean it's going to happen. But most human beings, if they have to do something for their job every single day, they're going to become pretty good at it.
Noah:One would think yeah, I've seen people who don't I so have I, but you can't.
Frank:I feel like that's the exception, not the rule. I think most human beings are going to figure out how to do the things they need to do. The things that you need to solve for are do they care enough? Do they? Are they motivated? Are they um? Are they willing to be wrong? Are they willing to be creative? Are they willing to? You know what I mean. These are the things you have to solve for yeah, I think there's a like you've talked about.
Noah:The difference between us and a lot of other people can be restated, I think, as what they view the problem as, and so I see that all the time Someone's like these people don't understand this, so they just need a PowerPoint presentation. I will work on a PowerPoint presentation. And then they work on a PowerPoint presentation and I'm like oh, I just updated the importer so that the problem never happens again. Yeah, I don't need to explain to the world how to change the codes to be this or that, I'll just make it so the importer supports the problem.
Frank:Sure it goes away.
Noah:But there's a lot of people who are like oh well, if someone doesn't understand something, I'll just make them understand it through pouring information at this problem that they don't care about yeah, no, that for sure, but I I was talking specifically about tools, though not necessarily well, so am I, but but only because that person is very good at powerpoint.
Frank:They think their job is to use powerpoint yeah, yeah, I know, I, I just know, like on my team, the the rule is people can figure things out and they become good at the thing. They. Maybe they need a little guidance, but they there is an exception every once in a while, but the rule is, if they do it, they're going to figure it out, and I think we hire in a way where we're afraid of that one person. Who's the exception and it I think I don't know. I've seen a lot of people, especially at my former company that I that I was talking about being a freight merchandiser like seeing a lot of people get jobs that shouldn't have gotten jobs and the only reason was because they sold themselves. Well, and if you can be fooled by and this is the real, okay, here's the heart of the issue is the interviewing. People don't understand people. So, like, if you get through the application process and you write a really great resume and a really great cover letter, or maybe somebody else writes it for you, which happens a lot.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:And then you get into the interview room. These people that are interviewing can't see through the human being. That's one of the biggest problems with hiring.
Noah:Right.
Frank:They go. Oh man, this person seemed really nice and they seemed really they had no problem speaking. So I must be really good at this job.
Noah:Yeah.
Frank:You know, Yep. It's a real problem. I can't tell you how many people at ADM got hired into our department where I went. That person's not going to last. I mean, I knew it as soon as I met him and I don't mean anything good or bad about it, I just mean, like at face value, I'm like, nope, they don't mean anything good or bad about it, I just mean like at face value, I'm like, nope, they don't have what it takes for this job.
Noah:Yeah, I mean, I know what I need, like I've hired enough people in different roles to know what I need. I need someone who is going to bring energy, bring a smile, who is not like the reality of the situation right now, does not affect their personal energy, because it does affect mine. And I need someone who will show up with a smile anyways, because that's what's needed, someone who just wants to talk and have energy. And then they have to be able to conceptualize a system that doesn't exist yet. And so how did this table get made? If they can give me any answer, it doesn't have to be right, it has to be something other than what do you? Huh, I'm like, no, like, if you were to imagine how this table were made, how would you do you think it was made? And so sometimes I'll give him like a second chance. I'm like I don't, this doesn't need to be correct, but just tell me a story.
Frank:How do you think this table?
Noah:was made.
Frank:Oh, doesn't need to be correct, but just tell me a story. How do you think this table was? Made, oh I mean someone cut down some trees? Oh, I imagined the tree was fallen and it was found by some people across a creek, okay, and they went, oh, this tree looks really cool, and they cut it into a piece that they could move and they took it home with them. And then I'm just kidding, are you? Yeah, yeah, I'm kidding. I didn't think anything.
Noah:I don't think I would have hired you based on that answer why? Because I stopped no, it had way too much narrative and it was not about how the table came to be. Oh, I would have gotten there. That's not what I'm looking for.
Frank:I'm also not a seven.
Noah:I need a quick summary. Yeah, Maybe seven isn't. Maybe it's more of a three. I need a little more I care about how I appear to others than seven, oh gee.
Noah:Uh or uh, or I mean, you know what I mean. You understand that I'll just go, I know. But sevens will just go on and on, and on and on and they don't necessarily have a ton of receptiveness always to how they're being perceived, but threes do sure. Yeah, they're like oh, I can't talk about the creek because he wants to know about the table. Hold off on the creek, go with the table no, I just liked.
Frank:Imagining that this tree started by falling made me feel good about this table, because we didn't cut it down, that would bother you. I would rather the tree have fallen naturally than us cut it down.
Noah:Yeah, I don't know, no matter to me. There are going to be more trees. I'm glad it's here, but I would have epoxied that hole.
Frank:Yeah, anyways, probably would have been smart, but then you wouldn't be able to run that.
Noah:You could half epoxy it, half epoxy.
Frank:You could drill a hole in the epoxy.
Noah:Yep. Anyways, it's easter so I have to go to church half poxy. Uh, I'm gonna go join jake in religious experiences man. I hope he's having a good time with his religious experience.
Frank:Yeah, I hope you're having a wonderful easter sunday, wherever you are with whomever you're with. I don't know what this conversation has been about, but we had one. Yeah, thanks for listening.
Noah:I hope you're having a wonderful Easter Sunday, wherever you are with whomever you're with. I don't know what this conversation has been about, but we had one. Yeah, thanks for listening, and next week we'll talk about how to be a good project manager on the Unbecoming Platypus podcast. Happy.
Frank:Easter.