Finding the Beautiful State | Exploring Childhood Wounds as a Map to Peace

Noah: 0:45

Last night we were having dinner, amy told the story of her cousin's husband, or something, who lived in this small town in Venezuela, who moved to the US and came back and suddenly was like I only drink carbonated water.

Frank: 1:05

I only drink San Pellegrino.

Noah: 1:08

Yeah, I only drink San Pellegrino, and she's like you were you used to drink. Lake water just drinking water out of the river.

Frank: 1:18

Well, what's salient?

Jake: 1:20

I think it's the concentration of salt in solution.

Frank: 1:26

That's salinity.

Jake: 1:30

You don't have anything salient in your life.

Noah: 1:33

Burnout. Jake has mentioned mental health days twice recently. Have I, he has yeah, more than once, more than once you have you said that you took a mental health day from this podcast.

Frank: 1:46

You almost took a mental health day on Friday or Thursday.

Jake: 1:49

Wow, I mean I think, yeah, okay, mm-hmm, that's correct. You almost took a mental health day on friday or thursday. Wow, I I mean I think, yeah, okay, that's correct, I'm tired.

Noah: 1:57

I think, yeah, what would you do on a mental health day?

Jake: 2:00

probably a lot of uh meditation. Maybe get out in nature some silence, isolation, centering, grounding, those sorts of things Recalibrate the nervous system a bit.

Frank: 2:18

How do you center and ground?

Jake: 2:20

Well, I like breathing exercises for regulating the nervous system. It definitely settles me quite a bit. It's very calming. I do some exercises where I bring myself into the room with different objects in the room or outside. It's very visual for me.

Jake: 2:45

I've talked about that before, but just coming back into the moment, watching my mind go back and try to solve problems over and over and get to a place where I no longer want to do that, because there's a piece of me that's pulled almost like a magnet into those lines of thinking, and even whenever I'm doing the exercises to try to regulate, I still watch myself in some way, desire to be here and truly understand I don't need to be in that thought process, and sometimes it takes a while, sometimes it's a fight, sometimes it takes a few times throughout the day to embody that more. What's the word? That? Uh, more, um, what's the word like? Not temporarily, but permanently. Okay, yeah, I mean this is like that's a real thing. That I'm going through right now is my brain is so tired I can't think of words I'm pretty tired myself.

Noah: 4:10

I think in similar and different ways. Probably. I think the work stuff is similar, yeah, but I've just also been dealing with still dealing with stuff from my mom constantly, who seems more and more helpless as she gets older. Who seems more and more helpless as she gets older, and I was in an accident earlier this week dealing with the insurance company, not having a car.

Noah: 4:38

But I'm also going back to the burnout, the whole process. There's few things in life that I care about less than a car. I need a car to get from A to B. So the whole idea of shopping for a car which I'm not even started yet, because my claim is not figured out, just wears me out. I don't care enough. I want something that's going to last. I want something that I like, at least mildly. Of course I don't want to drive something I think is ugly or uncomfortable or whatever.

Jake: 5:14

You don't want a cube.

Noah: 5:15

Sure, you sure Jeep. I do not want a Jeep. We're narrowing it down. But, the idea of finding a car that I think suits me, suits the things that I need is in a price range that I feel okay about. Going and test driving cars. Talking to and negotiating with salesmen like this whole thing wears me out just thinking about it.

Noah: 5:46

That's how they get you, man definitely car salesmen are capitalizing on the burnout, like he doesn't even want to negotiate I mean, I'm uh, I'm quick to a no when it comes to to car salesmen. If I, if they do not say things that I like, I'm like, I'll find something else.

Frank: 6:04

Thanks, and I leave yeah, I mean I, I would just buy a tesla, and there's no salesman process or anything, you just pick the one you want, sure I mean I'd probably be more likely to buy a used tesla.

Noah: 6:19

If I buy a tesla, yeah, I've I've looked at a couple online that I thought I mean it's a decent price. But I don't know. I don't even know what goes into changing from a gas to electric car, fully Like, what do I need to make sure I have at home and what is the cost? I don't even know what the cost is of charging and all of that. I'm sure it's a little bit cheaper than gas. Is it that much cheaper than gas?

Frank: 6:49

Yeah, I mean Amarant has rates Like once you have an electric car, they change your rates to be much lower. But yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's impacted our power bill at all.

Noah: 7:02

Yeah, how often do you go to charging stations like that supercharger?

Frank: 7:07

Very rarely. I mean, you never need to. You got a 300-mile range.

Noah: 7:12

Yeah, yeah, I understand. Like I said, there are things—.

Frank: 7:15

You could probably charge at work and never need to charge anywhere else if you have a plug-in where you park.

Noah: 7:22

Have you been to the hill before? Yeah, I did.

Frank: 7:25

I didn't know if you guys had a parking lot.

Noah: 7:30

No, no, I mean, there are things about electric vehicles in general, not just Tesla, that ideally would be great, and I do care about the implications for the environment and stuff in some way too, but I also have to think about my bank account.

Jake: 7:50

Solar array in your backyard and you could charge your Tesla just with that solar array.

Noah: 7:57

Schnucks has solar panels now. I got an email from them.

Jake: 8:00

That's kind of cool, yeah.

Noah: 8:03

Anyway, this is about burnout and mental health and stuff. Anyway, I was trying to say that I feel similarly. Yeah, I feel very exhausted. I haven't been sleeping well, which doesn't help, so like I feel physically tired, which is not common for me. I actually sleep pretty well most of the time, but I have been sleeping less well and so I've been feeling physically tired, like my my eyes feel heavy and like I want to take naps and stuff. I'm not taking naps because I don't who can fall asleep during the day, but but, yeah, I think I'm exhausted and I that whole thinking about all this stuff that I have to do. It's really I'm usually pretty good about being sort of present and that stuff is pulling me out of that right now For sure.

Noah: 9:02

Like, when will I even have a rental car? Because they can't seem to move forward with the claim on the other person's insurance for me to get a rental car. You know, yeah, when will I get a rental car? Well, when will I know how much they're going to pay me for my car? How am I going to shop for another one? Yeah, how many cars am I going to have to test drive? It all seems super exhausting to me. It is.

Jake: 9:27

How about you Franco?

Frank: 9:30

Am I tired, are you?

Jake: 9:31

tired? Is that the question?

Frank: 9:32

Yeah, yeah, I guess. So I find that in survivors of complex trauma such as ourselves, there's some hidden driver that is causing a need to reach some state, like you know I don't know, it's not quite your mommy didn't love you enough, but it is. Whatever that validation thing is, or however you've changed it around. I'm mostly talking about me, but I think it applies to a lot of people. However, you've changed it around in your head to be like if I just hit this metric, then it'll be clear that everyone loves me, or or that I'm, I shouldn't have been abandoned, or that I do matter, or whatever seems to cause an almost incessant need to be energized to get to that goal. And I think if we can remove the goal and find whatever that thing is now, then you can rest.

Jake: 10:46

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a letting For me I can really only speak for myself it's a letting go of needing to control or know an outcome, which is a form of control. Um it, I mean it. It's. Multiple times over the last couple of weeks, the idea of the serenity prayer has come into my mind. It's just like you know help me to let go of the things that I can't change, to control the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Jake: 11:23

At this moment in time, there are many factors that I cannot control. The only thing that I can control is what's right in front of me, and the truth is that that is always the case. If I ever believe that I actually have control over the outcome in my mind, that too is a delusion. It may be highly likely that I feel as though the actions I'm taking today are driving me toward that end goal, but it is as much a concept in my mind as feeling like I'm out of control. I only ever have control over what I'm doing right now. I think that's a good place to be, like you said. Just coming back to the present, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Frank: 12:37

I think for me, like I've developed all kinds of defense mechanisms or approaches, or sometimes it's like removing the problem three levels from where it seems like it is and putting it somewhere else, and then the real problem almost always comes back to something like abandonment. That's almost always what I'm trying to solve for, like if I just do this well enough, then people will think I matter, I should be here for some reason that seems like it could just go away, and a lot of the it could just go away.

Frank: 13:16

And a lot of the tiredness could go away. I don't know exactly how to get there, but I think it involves things like focusing on their relationships, improving connections, not trying to control everything, but you know, it probably would have been a lot easier if someone would have just loved me as a little kid. I can't really get that part back.

Jake: 13:38

So sure.

Noah: 13:39

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's sort of um. The problem, though, is that, no matter what your childhood was like, there's always some there's always some deficiency, definitely.

Frank: 13:52

Yeah, definitely yeah, and I don't even mean like I'm a victim or something, I don't even feel like that. But I do think that most of the tiredness of people comes from trying to recover validation that they lack. And maybe it's not validation, maybe it's love or acceptance, or authority or importance or whatever they lacked.

Jake: 14:16

Mine feels like a form of peace. I could tell you at a high level. These are the five things that need resolved for me to experience peace. I don't have to work right now, but because these five things are still in motion, oh, I just tied one up.

Jake: 14:35

Now there's four left and when I get to that fourth one and finally tie it up, that's where peace is. And then I tie up another one in another one, and now there's only two left and then three more pop up. And so it's this perpetual state of I have to work to get to that ideal state, and it is a failure to acknowledge I'm already in the ideal state. There will always be something to tie up, but that's what it feels like to me, like yeah, I think put a word to it yeah, I think that's what it feels like to a lot of people.

Frank: 15:07

it's like I heard theo talking about this on a podcast the other day and he said I've, I feel like, or I felt like I can't remember when he was talking about, but he's essentially like I work in a restaurant and I don't know when we're open and I don't know what we serve, and I just have to keep running around and I I don't even know why we're here, but I had to show up to work every day. Um, and I don't even know why we're here, but I had to show up to work every day. I think that's the state you often find yourself in and it's like why is it like this?

Jake: 15:44

Yeah, you know we've talked about before some of the um mechanisms for gratitude. Even in the now, when things don't feel like something I want to be grateful for, I found myself saying like, oh, this is the fire. This is the fire that purifies the gold. This is the test that kills parts of me that I don't need anymore this. I'm not going to come out of this completely alive. There are parts of me that are going to die here. I'm going to bury them here and I'm thankful for that. And six months from now, there will be a form of Jake that says without that moment, I couldn't be who I am now, and and and. So I do sometimes project myself into that future state and say, okay, this is a gift, and I don't know when it's going to play out and when I'm going to reap the benefit of it. But this isn't for nothing. It never has been and this one won't be either. So be here and expect that it's going to be good. That's something I've been telling myself.

Frank: 16:55

Yeah, I mean, probably the most healing thing I've been doing lately is just being trying to be present, turning the camera on, on Zoom, trying to have fun with people, even if I think I'm like like this conversation doesn't make any sense, we're never going to reach the solution, like those are default responses for me. I'm like like we're just talking for no reason. The thing we're talking about is six years away. No one will remember this conversation happened. It's not on the agenda. But I'm like I'm just going to turn the camera on and just have fun with these people and try to be present, because this is what I'm doing with my life, right, yes, um, and my life isn't that long. There are only so many weeks and this is a real one of them, and so I may as well have fun. It feels so weird, it feels so opposite of working at the restaurant or whatever.

Jake: 17:54

Yeah.

Frank: 17:55

To be honest, it's like I'm not achieving any goal right now. I'm not working towards validation, I won't. It doesn't feel like the direct approach to solving whatever puzzle it is that has pervaded my life, but it might end in people validating or loving me or something, yeah, which is weird, but uh well it's.

Jake: 18:22

It is interesting. A couple of things here. I I heard, I read maybe, or heard someone say if you find yourself isolating when a problem needs to be solved, it probably means that you had to solve a lot of problems on your own when you were younger. That's your default state. This is where we solve problems, and I definitely find myself isolating when, when it's time for that. But then there's this other side of the coin.

Jake: 18:51

It's like we can know ourselves spiritually, emotionally, biologically. We can know ourselves in a lot of different ways, and I think that it's all kind of worthless unless we can take that knowledge and leverage it in a certain way. I know that, biologically, I need certain calories from certain macronutrients, from certain sources. I know that sunshine is good for me. I know that I'm a social creature and that anthropologically, I need connection, and so by knowing these things, I can start to give myself the psychological nutrients that I need to feel present in this moment, to feel like, hey, I might be a server at a restaurant and I don't know what it's on the menu, but guess what that server over there doesn't either, and we can at least have fun with this right yeah, and so I found myself trying to connect a little bit more.

Jake: 19:52

It feels so unnatural in a time when I want to isolate, but I did it three times last week in work environments and I like went out with you guys, uh, to dinner. I was exhausted, I didn't really want to go, but it was. It's like, let me start to give myself the things that I need, and at first it's going to feel weird, but I know this about myself, so let's do it.

Frank: 20:19

I think there's a trust factor too, and sort of anti-collaboration. So if I do have a real problem that needs solved, the last thing I'm going to do is trust someone else.

Frank: 20:32

Yeah, so that's a tendency towards isolation a real problem, then he'd solved. The last thing I'm going to do is trust someone else. Yeah, um, so that's, you know, a tendency towards isolation, and that's a really hard thing to try to navigate, because you're like I'll just trust people, yeah, you know, and then you try it and it doesn't work that well, or you, you know, it's not like a natural thing to just trust people, so it feels weird, it feels hard, and then you don't really know how to do it. Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, stuff like that.

Jake: 21:11

Yeah. Something I've been experiencing recently too, though, is that I think one of the most beautiful states I inhabit sometimes is when I do something intentionally that I used to do compulsively. I think that, as you heal, you start to see the things that you've done compulsively and you say, oh, I don't have to do those things anymore, Let me try my hand at doing something differently. So, for instance, I used to have to be like the savior for people and I thought everyone's going to freaking, die and they're always going to make the wrong decision if I don't intervene. And then I realized, hey, that's compulsive, that's trauma, let's do something different. So I stand back and I watch them take care of themselves and I'm like, oh, I don't have to work so hard. This is one less obstacle in the way to Jake's peaceful state that he wants to get to, that one unraveled.

Jake: 22:09

And then you inhabit that for a little while and you're like this is really great. And then you start to see someone kind of struggling and you go. They could do this on their own. But you know what? For three decades, I developed a pretty innate ability to help people. I could actually step in here and help a little bit, and that's pretty cool. These things used to. They were developed out of trauma but they became strengths and now I get to be this sort of whole person who's stepping forward intentionally. So I kind of heard that when you were talking about the isolation versus trust thing and I totally get that, and I guess what I'm saying is sometimes there's beauty in isolating as well on purpose, and you really can be productive in those states too yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know.

Frank: 23:03

I I think people oftentimes get into codependency type relationships work or personal or whatever yeah um, where it's like I, I don't trust anyone, but I do trust this one thing, like you're gonna need me or you're gonna uh, like I will be, there is the other, you know, it's just how you view it, but I'll be there for you. And it's not really healthy, I don't think, because people become attuned to the the other person more than themselves, or their boss more than themselves, or whatever. I don't know how I feel, but I know how you seem to feel and how I need to respond, or something, what you need, or something.

Jake: 23:52

Yeah, I've been triggered a few times at work over the last week, this triggering feeling of not being seen or undervalued, something like that. And because I'm aware of it, I can respond to this person in such a way that gives them what they need. But I can also see I'm not doing it compulsively, I didn't do it automatically. So I'm here looking at the whole picture, I can see the whole freaking chessboard and all of a sudden I feel a sense of autonomy and power over my life and I go all right. So they needed that. I kind of gave them what they needed for a time.

Jake: 24:34

I'm going to watch this now and I'm going to watch to see if this continues down this path and if it does, I might walk away. And that was something that I didn't have before. I didn't have the autonomy. Really, or agency, or individuation, I think, is what it is. I'm separating myself from that other person and I'm saying, hey, I don't have to make them feel better, I have control over this moment. Right now I'm choosing to be here and tomorrow I might choose to be somewhere else.

Frank: 25:13

Definitely.

Jake: 25:16

Yeah, it's a whole experience of getting to know myself better.

Frank: 25:19

When you feel triggered like that, do you ever try to go back? Or, like often when I feel triggered, it's hard to remember, but it's a moment where you can say, like, how old do I feel right now?

Jake: 25:37

Oh yeah, that's a great question Okay.

Frank: 25:41

What am I responding to? It can't be this. Yeah, when's the first time I felt like this, or whatever you?

Jake: 25:46

know? Yeah, I've often heard you ask that question. When's the first time I felt like this? But how old do I feel? Actually grabs something deeper for me. It's that whole like am I trying to make my dad proud of me?

Frank: 26:01

right now? Yes, that's really the question. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Well, I lost a huge sense of purpose. I joke about it, but the more I've thought about it, it was a real thing for me. A few years ago, my dad found my LinkedIn, or, and he's. He told me how proud he was and how amazing like he's, like I've never seen someone with so many accomplishments and you have all these certifications and yada, yada, yada. And I'm like, yeah, thanks dad.

Frank: 26:33

Like whatever I don't care, but I got off the phone and I was like am I trying to impress? Yeah, cause it seems like that must've been part of it. Uh, I guess. I mean, I wasn't hoping for that conversation to happen consciously or something, but uh, you know, the floor fell out of whatever.

Jake: 27:00

Yeah, I, I think about this sometimes. It's it's often easier to look at myself via a reflection of my own projection than it is to, like, look inside myself. But I, I see this with Alex Ramosi, like I have this real judgment of him, uh, because he talks about how he wanted to prove his dad wrong and all this stuff, and I'm like, well, you did it, man. You did it like over and over and over. Yeah, what's still driving you, is it?

Frank: 27:29

oh, he switched it to internal the inadequacy I don't think so.

Jake: 27:33

I think it's all internal now sure, but like there's this judgment in my mind of and he's just a symbol for it, it's like, do we sublimate this? I mean, that's exactly what I was talking about earlier Like am I doing intentionally what I used to do compulsively? And uh, yeah, it is interesting. I do have a drive to be valuable, to make people comfortable, to be serving a cause and to help people along the way.

Frank: 28:11

but yeah, it feels like it's mostly a drive to solve whatever childhood wound existed. That was biggest and uh, I think alex just is really good at pattern recognition and I think he did feel like he beat his dad or whatever. He really wanted that and then he did it and he's like this is all meaningless or I can change the goal. Yeah, I want a billion dollars. I'll know I'm valuable when I have a billion dollars.

Jake: 28:41

Yeah.

Frank: 28:42

So you're just aiming for that, and then when he gets there, he'll be like ah, this is all meaningless, I need $10 billion. That's how I'll know.

Jake: 28:49

Sure.

Frank: 28:50

I think it's all just an internal game for him. Now, yeah, I don't think most people are very good at doing that internally. No, I don't think most people are very good at doing that internally. No, I do know that where focus goes, energy flows, and I see this all the time in myself and others. And so if you're focused on filling whatever that validation gap is, that's going to underpin all your decisions. And for him it seems to be billions of dollars. Sure, it seems like to feel valued or something Mm-hmm or not Want, wanting to feel like I'm needed, like you won't be able to do this without me, or something. I don't say it like that, sure, but I think that's what it is, and it does inform most of my, my business transactions and stuff like that.

Jake: 29:39

Yeah.

Frank: 29:41

I don't have a strategy or tiered pricing. You could put me on retainer. I'll help you get your goals done. That's my whole business model and it works. I mean I do it. I. I value helping people and being needed um yeah but I don't need to know what the services are, I don't really care like, just tell me the goal, we'll get you there but, yeah, I think that I have a need to feel like intrinsically special.

Jake: 30:17

Yeah, and I've relied on my natural strengths for most of my life to get where I am. And now I'm in this place, where they've taken me quite a distance, but I don't have the tool. Set that I need to have to go to the next step. Set that I need to have to go to the next step. And when you're in that growth state, that's great, it's amazing, but it also shines a light on the fact that you didn't have these tools intrinsically. So it's this moment of confronting reality and an insecurity and accepting that, integrating that and moving forward, which is like, in its own right, an emotional funeral for a person that you thought you were and like, okay, either do it or don't do it. If you don't do it, the next opportunity might be a while away. How about you just do it now, while you?

Frank: 31:23

you got the opportunity in front of you, yeah you think?

Noah: 31:25

no, I don't really relate to the validation thing. I want everyone else to take care of themselves. So yeah, I think that's it for you.

Frank: 31:38

It's just different. I mean, the thing isn't validation, the thing is, whatever the childhood wound was, right, yeah, yeah, I just want everybody else to to pull their own weight yeah, that's a part of what I want also I want, pull your own weight and when you truly need help, show me that you tried and I'll help you.

Jake: 31:59

Yeah, yeah but you just want people to take care of themselves. Yeah, what is that? What does that leave you with, like, do you, do you feel empty when people actually do take care of themselves? No no, is it actually really good at this point?

Noah: 32:14

I really like it when people don't bother me. I don't like what Frank said is true. I'm good at problem solving and I don't mind helping people if it's truly needed, but, god, I can't handle it when it's like I need this and I didn't even try to figure it out. Go try to figure it out for a second. It's not hard and you will figure it out.

Noah: 32:40

Yeah, you don't have to be a genius right I get so tired of that and that is definitely from the childhood wound thing so how do you do you know how you could?

Frank: 32:53

so, if that's what you want, your restaurant is serving everyone, serves themselves, and you're running around in there and hoping that everyone will take care of themselves and try. Do you have any sense of what it would be like to reach the goal to fill the childhood wound?

Noah: 33:13

I mean, I think, if we want to look at it from a career standpoint, the thing that I would love to have. I think I really like learning and growing and trying new things, and so I think the opposite of steering the ship would be great. I would like to have to learn something and I would like to work for someone who's brilliant, who knows what they're doing and can teach me things.

Frank: 33:44

I've offered you a job so many times.

Noah: 33:46

Who can say listen, you're doing this wrong. I would love that I can help you. You can say you're doing this wrong. You would be wrong. So I think that's what it would look like in a career for me is let me do something that I have to grow into and do it for someone who knows what they're doing.

Frank: 34:16

Yeah, I mean, I don't know them. You don't know anyone that you would trust for that personally no, I mean what about like celebrity status or something?

Noah: 34:29

I mean somebody like somebody like adam grant who, uh, thinks about everything, is very knowledgeable. And you know, I think working for someone like that, where I can learn stuff, where their thinking would challenge mine, have you emailed him? About working for him. No, I don't know that he really has a business. I mean, he's a professor and he runs a podcast.

Frank: 34:58

Yeah, you could ask, and he runs a podcast. Yeah, you could ask.

Noah: 35:00

And he writes books.

Frank: 35:02

I mean, it feels like you have an end state that you would really like. Sure, and he was the most salient person that came up when I asked you about it, so I would email him.

Noah: 35:12

Yeah, and say what.

Frank: 35:15

Hey, I really am inspired by you. I like you and I was wondering if there's any way I could do some work for you.

Noah: 35:22

Yeah, it's not a bad idea I mean, yeah, that's the.

Jake: 35:26

That's, the cool thing about moving in a direction is that you could say, oh, I need to move in that direction because I want to hit that point on the horizon there. I think and then you take a step and the first bit of feedback you get is oh, actually it looks shiny over there, but where you really want to go is over here to the right, and you don't know that.

Noah: 35:46

So you take the step, yeah and I think, like I, I love od and leadership and org psychology and these things I think are interesting, but I don't even know if it has to be in a particular industry. I just want something that's going to stretch me, that I have to learn, grow into and, like I said, work for someone who doesn't need me to solve their problems can actually help me. Yeah, along the way, because that, because if you think about the childhood wound, that's the thing that I'm missing.

Noah: 36:22

It's like somebody going no, this is how you do it.

Jake: 36:26

That's interesting. So I was thinking about this and I think that, if I had to put words on it, my greatest insecurity is not being smart enough, like sincerely. I mean, I think there's a life or death sort of trigger inside of me that says, if you're not smart enough to get yourself out of the situation, you're going to die, like you're in a cave, no one's coming to help you. Are you going to be able to climb yourself out? Now I can look at that and I can say, okay, this is fallacious there. I'm not going to die, it's okay.

Jake: 37:04

In fact, I'm not smart enough. I am not smart enough in most ways, right, but even still, it triggers that piece of me. So I don't ever want to get to a place where I feel not smart enough. And yet in a place where I feel not smart enough is my only opportunity to grow. So now I'm at an impasse, my stated goals are in conflict and it's like I'm in that place where I choose one and I like what you just said speaks to me because it says I do want some sort of mentor, I do want someone to say, hey, actually that wasn't quite right, let's think about it this way instead, but expect pain. It does trigger, it does.

Noah: 37:46

I mean, when I moved into marketing, I had never been a project manager, I'd never worked in marketing. I didn't know anything. To be honest with you, I barely knew what SEO was when I started there. Everything I've learned, I've taught myself.

Jake: 38:03

Right.

Noah: 38:04

I did not get brought along by my boss.

Jake: 38:07

Yes.

Noah: 38:08

Everything I've learned I've taught myself. I know I can do that. I do that with everything. I would love to step into something where somebody's like hey, let me teach you. I would love to step into something where somebody is like hey, let me teach you, I'll do the work myself too, but I would love to step in and go. I trust your knowledge and your experience and your ability. Teach me how to do this thing. That would be amazing.

Jake: 38:32

Yeah, A lot of people talk about mentors. They say I never would have gotten where I was without a mentor mentor.

Frank: 38:39

I haven't actually reached out and looked into that though yeah, so I've had a few, but not I don't have a lifelong mentor or anything, but I've had a few people that did speak um that I learned from like over the years. Ken was one of them. I think you knew him, but Ken changed the direction of my life in ways, I think.

Jake: 39:04

Wow.

Frank: 39:05

And then I think Bill was a VP at Intermedics who really made some changes in my approach to emotions. He saw something that he used to have in himself and me and talked to me about it and it's basically like he's like, I still write emails like, and then I have to go back in and I take all the he's out and then no one can even tell what I said, because most of the email content was you, he's like, but just put it in your drafts don't put the email address in though that's the trick.

Jake: 39:48

I started drafting my emails in google docs. Really, I did so. You don't accidentally send it. I have never accidentally sent an email that I shouldn't. Um, but it's terrifying.

Frank: 40:00

I prefer to have the sanctuary it's the hardest thing about using ai features in email to me. I used to feel some responsibility to tell people how they, how screwed up things are. Yeah, and so you know he would see this and be like he's like dude, if you want to promote people they don't promote people like that you need to believe in this place for them to believe in you. And I'm like I don't believe in this place.

Jake: 40:30

He's like I know, know, but you can't tell everyone that, because they will never promote you well, yeah, and I mean, I guess it becomes a question of how do you get to a place where you do believe in it, like well?

Frank: 40:42

or believe in it enough that, like you, I don't think you have to believe that you're going to reach the super product next year, but you could believe that the people are improving at a rate that's valuable or something, and that's yes, you can believe in it. Yep, and a lot of my to a yes, a lot of my disappointment was that my standards are too high, too high for the organization or something like I think it should be this way.

Jake: 41:07

No one else cares, so I'm just expressing my disappointment to everyone yeah, I've had to break my worldview into ideal state versus realistic state versus mvp state. Yeah, like that is that's it. Okay, I have to achieve mvp. Stop trying to do the work to get three steps ahead, because you will not accomplish the minimum viable product and you will spend six months doing nothing because you're not going to get to the three steps ahead. You need to get to that one instead. It's resetting your goal, and that's hard for me. That's very hard for me. Resetting your goal and that's hard for me. That's very hard for me. So what's this about? I think it's um existing in the present moment, looking at reality, acknowledging our own insecurities and triggers, and looking at reality through our childhood wounds yeah, the art of existing in a beautiful state, no matter your environment yeah, he said, theo's also said a different way, the same thing

Noah: 42:19

when you say theo theo von okay, that's what I was thinking, but but what?

Frank: 42:26

but he wasn't sure if it was huxtable theo huxtable, I don't I mean, I didn't know yeah, he was talking about this, but he said a different version of the restaurant thing. Which Brandy was listening to me listen to this and she's like what did he just say? Anything that makes any sense. Were you like active listening?

Noah: 42:45

Yeah, that makes sense to you, did she was?

Jake: 42:46

listening to you listen.

Frank: 42:47

Yeah, I don't think she had the interest I had in it.

Noah: 42:55

But she was lit. I don't think she had the interest I had in it, but she was overhearing it.

Frank: 42:57

I know we just really liked that she was listening to you listening, she was. So another version of it was he was like I'm at costco, I got a name badge and I'm running around in there and I don't know who the boss is and I don't know what I'm selling and I don't even know what my job is. But I have to keep showing up and customers talk to me and stuff, but what am I here?

Jake: 43:17

for it's that freaking name badge, man, yeah.

Frank: 43:23

Yeah, I think a lot of people feel like that in life.

Noah: 43:28

I gave you a jigsaw puzzle analogy the other day.

Frank: 43:32

And I gave you a picture of it about what it feels like to work where I work. Yeah, I think that's what life feels like for a lot of people.

Noah: 43:42

Yeah, maybe I still feel like a lot of people have some of the pieces put together. There might be a few missing and a bunch on the floor, but yeah, how did you say it?

Frank: 43:54

it is the same thing as the costco.

Noah: 43:56

I said that working is like a toddler telling you hey, I'm gonna put this jigsaw puzzle together. You're like awesome. And two days later they go hey, can you help me finish this jigsaw puzzle? And you walk into the room where they've been working on it and the puzzle is just dumped out on the floor. Nothing's put together. Some of the puzzle pieces are missing.

Frank: 44:21

We started yeah, I've been doing this, okay yeah, well, I hope you find ways to get the puzzle pieces together, or at least feel like you're succeeding.

Noah: 44:41

Sometimes the front of the box that shows you what it's supposed to look like is not even there anymore. Yeah, yeah. It's good.

Frank: 44:50

That's what it's like.

Noah: 44:51

Sometimes there are puzzle pieces from other puzzles, like do you make your own puzzle? Yeah, it's good, that's what it's like. Sometimes there are puzzle pieces from other puzzles, like do you make your own puzzle?

Frank: 44:57

Yeah, sometimes there's puzzle pieces in Chicago.

Noah: 45:01

We're missing one piece of this puzzle. Let's make it. That's an approach. Cut it out cardboard.

Frank: 45:09

Yeah, don't judge it until you have to do it. Yeah, thanks for listening everyone.

Jake: 45:16

Thanks thanks, you made it this far. Thank you so much.