The Unbecoming Platypus
Burnout and Embracing Endings
When the laughter subsides, we wade into the deeper waters of burnout and the necessity of letting go. Our conversation turns reflective as we discuss the delicate juggling act of maintaining productivity in the face of emotional and physical exhaustion. We pull from Dr. Henry Cloud's wisdom on 'necessary endings', meshing personal anecdotes with practical advice on how to recognize when it's time to draw the line. Whether it's in relationships or at work, you'll come away with a new perspective on the value of saying goodbye.
As we round off, thoughts turn to the evolution of our work lives in the face of ever-advancing technologies. We weigh in on the pros and cons of AI-driven tools like Taskade, and consider whether they're revolutionizing or complicating project management. You'll also get a peek into the growth conundrum – is bigger always better? And because we love to keep things quirky, don't miss our light-hearted discussion on the lasting impact of childhood nicknames, featuring the legendary "Fat Daddy". Join us for this episode that's as much about contemplation as it is about cracking up.
When the laughter subsides, we wade into the deeper waters of burnout and the necessity of letting go. Our conversation turns reflective as we discuss the delicate juggling act of maintaining productivity in the face of emotional and physical exhaustion. We pull from Dr. Henry Cloud's wisdom on 'necessary endings', meshing personal anecdotes with practical advice on how to recognize when it's time to draw the line. Whether it's in relationships or at work, you'll come away with a new perspective on the value of saying goodbye.
As we round off, thoughts turn to the evolution of our work lives in the face of ever-advancing technologies. We weigh in on the pros and cons of AI-driven tools like Taskade, and consider whether they're revolutionizing or complicating project management. You'll also get a peek into the growth conundrum – is bigger always better? And because we love to keep things quirky, don't miss our light-hearted discussion on the lasting impact of childhood nicknames, featuring the legendary "Fat Daddy". Join us for this episode that's as much about contemplation as it is about cracking up.
Throw some stuff up on the screen. What do?
Frank:you mean About what?
Jake:Didn't we have a list of topics that we said those are the right ones? Oh, I thought about.
Noah:I thought you wanted the 45 minute.
Jake:Oh, I would also like that. Oh shit, what's that mean? It means it's time for 25 push-ups. Better do them, we'll wait. We'll wait, it's fine, we'll pause. We're pausing for 25 push-ups. Go ahead, I have snatch wrist. Thanks, guys, I appreciate you supporting us.
Frank:We want to honor your choices. Yeah, appreciate that.
Noah:Two three, no rep. Four, five, six, seven, eight. I thought this would go faster. Yeah, he's slow. We're keeping this in. This is gold.
Frank:Why is it? Every time I go to your house I get strep throat? The main thing that seemed infectious at your house was olive coffee.
Noah:There was. This is my best Olive impression At my house, I believe that it's factual.
Frank:That was.
Jake:I'd say 100% of the time, sort of Interpretation, impression.
Frank:Yeah, she's the equivalent Of a human little girl tornado. Apparently, I made a face when that happened, friendly human.
Noah:Frank really liked my face when that happened. Friendly human Frank really liked my face when that happened at my house Apparently. When she did that I apparently was like horrified.
Frank:Yeah.
Noah:I like that.
Jake:Yeah, no, I meant there was a list of project management topics. That when were they?
Frank:in.
Jake:That's great they're up there. It was sort of a translucent blue, navy blue background.
Noah:Once we turn that screen off, everything goes away.
Jake:A translucent blue, a navy blue, sort of the color of your shirt. I'd imagine you like that color and turn many things that color I do. This is the least valuable clue I can give Guys. I think I'm going to a networking event.
Noah:Oh which one Couldn't tell you. It's going to be, a Thursday right after work I'll probably have a drink Sure.
Jake:I'd suggest eating. I know you don't normally eat on Thursdays.
Noah:That's a really good point. I'm gonna call Amy and be like hey, I don't know how to get home.
Frank:Can you ride my bike over here?
Noah:I have Ubered home from St Louis one time.
Jake:In the middle of the night it was cheaper than expected.
Noah:It was true, it was cheaper than expected. It was true, it was cheaper than I expected.
Jake:I mean because my expectation was $250.
Noah:It was like $50.
Frank:That's a good deal.
Noah:I mean at midnight, 100% At midnight, when I have no car Right, that's what I mean. I was happy to pay $50.
Frank:I think I've paid $85 to go there or back before.
Noah:Yeah, I mean I'm sure middle of the night helped, because if it was 5 pm probably would have been $200.
Jake:Yeah, yeah, then you may have wanted to wait until the middle of the night.
Noah:I can wait. I think if it was 5 pm I could have gotten somebody to baby pick me up.
Jake:That's also true. It would have been more likely.
Noah:Yeah, but anyway I think I'm playing the game. I don't like it, but.
Frank:That is tea with caffeine in it.
Noah:Don't drink it.
Jake:No, I've got Earl Grey. This is also tea with caffeine in it.
Noah:Yeah, that's actual tea with caffeine in it. Yeah, that's actual tea with caffeine in it.
Frank:It's the lightest coffee flavor of any water I've ever drank.
Noah:This podcast is brought to you by Goshen's.
Jake:Coffee Bags. It's a faint wisp of a hint of coffee.
Frank:It's LaCroix coffee flavored. That's what it is. That's a thing.
Jake:Yes, they have coffee flavored. Lacroix coffee flavored. That's what it is, that's a thing no. Yes, they have coffee flavored LaCroix.
Frank:No, look it up. I mean I'm tasting it.
Jake:But it's not sparkling. You could be experiencing something with effervescence.
Noah:I dislike coffee flavored things, except for coffee.
Jake:I like coffee. I'm no longer contagious. Do you like coffee flavored things that are flavored with coffee? I just kind of.
Noah:I thought about it on the drive here. I was like I wonder how frank's contagion is I also wondered.
Frank:But it's because I saw your diagnostic sheet on the table, so yeah, and here we are made me wonder yeah, uh, supposedly after 12 hours of the first penicillin dose. You know are contagious.
Jake:It's been about 65 hours you're not allergic to penicillin yet uh, man, I probably haven't had it in 15 years.
Frank:We're finding out timeline wise.
Noah:My, it's hard to believe you got strep from being at my house with olive. Why that's been like three weeks ago really yeah it was a long time ago.
Frank:It was brandy's birthday yeah, I don't know when, I don't know how I got it. Honestly. Um, I thought you were gonna say yeah, I don't know how I got it.
Noah:honestly, I thought you were going to say, yeah, I don't know when Brady's birthday is.
Frank:I don't know how I got strep. I just was blaming your house.
Jake:Well, I hope the antibiotics fix your poops. Oh, you have poop problems. Mine were real rough after COVID for quite a while, and then I took an antibiotic and they re-solidified.
Noah:Weird, I didn't have that particular issue.
Frank:I did have it was my very first covid symptom. Huh, weird poops. I mean there's no way this stays in the podcast. But I don't think. No, I was reading a Kindle book. Kindle who Martin On my couch, on my couch.
Jake:Dinner.
Noah:Is that a person?
Frank:Kindle dinner. It couldn't have been a more normal feeling moment in my life, and I shit myself 100% normal feeling moment in my life and I shit myself 100%. Just was like wow, it's real warm down there. What's going on? Okay, and I like rolled off the couch.
Noah:I took a shower.
Frank:That's amazing I didn't.
Noah:I can't say that I had that covid symptom. I did have weeks and weeks and weeks of um recurring neurological symptoms that had me worried for a while. I was like I'm twitching a lot. I was like maybe I have like ALS or Parkinson's.
Frank:I feel my best right now.
Noah:Yeah, would you say, you feel better than then.
Frank:Oh, right now, no, no, but I hope too soon, oh, okay.
Jake:That's one of my goals this year.
Frank:Yeah, I set my quarterly goals really someday I'm gonna feel better than when I feel better than then yeah, yeah, I mean several times on calls last week people were like man, frank, you really just sound great. I'm like, yeah, I feel really great as well, but uh, I thought I had covid and I had strep throat. Yeah, so I doesn't get better on its own I rarely really get sick.
Noah:And then one day I worked out with jake in the garage hadn't had covid in the whole pandemic, and then it destroyed me it's a good one. Yeah.
Jake:I had never had more symptoms than a headache, like maybe headache and fatigue, but that was the worst of it. This time around, I wondered if I was going to make it the muscle aches were insane, yeah, when I had COVID, like just my muscles, just hurt. That was the first symptom was like I feel like there's poison in my muscles.
Frank:Yeah, it was bad acid yeah, that my first symptom of strep this time was actually like fire joints. Just I felt like there was fire in my body.
Noah:Yeah Well that's why I thought you had.
Frank:COVID. I know I thought so too. I was like it'll be fine, I'll just get over it. I did not get over it in the same way that I get over COVID.
Jake:Huh Well it makes sense, because it wasn't COVID.
Noah:Right here's to getting better.
Frank:Oh, thanks, we both raised our cups. That was a lot of work to do that you have three options.
Jake:I know one of those is a bag, trash cup it would do it would do the job.
Frank:You're saying you want a timer if we ever get our shit together, our shits togethers.
Jake:Yeah, and yours are getting normal and mine are normal.
Frank:I don't know that, man, but I'm glad you're predicting it for me.
Jake:I am. I mean, I took a Z-Pak because I get full-on anaphylaxis if I take penicillin, so maybe it was.
Noah:Really.
Frank:Yeah, maybe it was azithromycin, you know. I told her that this is worth saying the whole story. So she said are you okay with penicillin? And I said I don't. You know, I don't know, I don't think so, but I don't know which class of drugs. I know I'm allergic to C-chlorine and I thought penicillin and C-chlorine were closely related. I feel like I remember this from somewhere and she's like yeah, they actually disproved that. That's not even a thing.
Jake:Disproved it. It starts out disproven. The connection had to come from somewhere.
Frank:Yeah, I know. So she convinced me, whatever. She seemed like a pretty smart PA. I'm like all right, it's fine. Oh well, first she said do you want to call your mom and check? And I'm like no, my mom will not know what I'm allergic to. I don't know if she ever knew, but she definitely doesn't know now.
Frank:So I get the penicillin, I get in my car and I'm like maybe I'll just ask my mom real quick. So I call my mom. I'm like hey, mom, what am I allergic to? And she's like oh, are you sick? Jessica said you were sick. I'm like yeah, I'm sick, but I have strep. They're going to give me penicillin. So I just wondered if you knew what I was allergic to.
Frank:She's like yeah, potatoes, dad's root beer, lemonade. I'm like okay, thanks, mom, do you know about any medicines? No, I, some eye dilating stuff, I think. I'm like okay, all right, good, uh. So then I'm like whatever, I thanks for your uh care and all that and love you bye. And then I went to cvs to pick up my penicillin and she's like I saw in your records that you're allergic to c-chlor and often people who are allergic to that have reactions to penicillin. And I'm like I know I told the doctor that and she said it's disproven. And she's like yeah, I mean it's just a chance. So you might just want to be aware of the chance. And I'm like Okay.
Frank:I'm aware of it, thank you.
Jake:They didn't always say it was disproven for a reason. There seemed to be some correlation. We're still worried about it, yeah.
Noah:Did you tell the PA that you are allergic to potatoes?
Frank:No, I just didn't. What about?
Jake:lemonade Wait and hold on.
Noah:Tell me the story where you found out that you were allergic to dad's root beer.
Frank:I don't know it, man.
Jake:I recently had a lemonade that I wish I was allergic to.
Frank:I'm definitely allergic to macadamia nuts. She didn't mention that. That's the only thing I have any memory of emergency responders reviving me from yeah yeah, that's good.
Jake:You gotta keep her up to date on these things, man.
Noah:Her records are out of date yeah, for sure uh only thing I'm allergic to dad's root beer, the brand no one time I drank my dad's root beer he slapped me any root beers my dad give me.
Frank:Wow, uh, so what do you want to talk about today?
Jake:well the project management conversation is a conversation. What the project management conversation is a conversation.
Frank:What are you interested in? What's salient? What's salient?
Jake:right now. That's a great question, noah.
Noah:Here's the thing I shut my brain off when I'm not at work because work is so exhausting.
Jake:Oh, tell me about that I I can't.
Noah:I'm exhausted I don't know exactly what that topic looks like yet, but I think it's a, I think it's one we could talk about. Well, because I'm exhausted as well are you burnt out. I was gonna say, there's the topic, I think burnout I think there's burnout for, but I don't know if it's only burnout, but I don't know what's the definition of burnout. Well, according to Emily Koskowski, Whoa, you've already looked this up.
Frank:No, he didn't even have his phone up yet.
Noah:Well, he had a name. I thought he's. He's been reading Emily's research Nagoski.
Jake:I apologize, nagoski.
Frank:He's looked this up.
Jake:According to Emily Nagoski's book Burnout. It's a really good book actually.
Noah:You've read it. Yeah, okay, listened to or read.
Jake:Listened to.
Frank:According to it, what I've got? A couple of books.
Noah:I need to listen to that. I have started both of them and stopped.
Jake:I don't think I'm at burnout, I'm at exhaustion.
Noah:Yeah Well, are you going to give us some sort of spectrum?
Jake:here, I'm working on it, okay.
Frank:I can tell you the definition of burnout if you want, but it's not. Is it emily, according to?
Jake:emily nagoski. Burnout can be defined by three components one, emotional exhaustion, two, depersonalization and three, a decreased sense of accomplishment what can you?
Noah:okay, maybe accomplishment.
Jake:What can you? Okay, maybe I'm burnout.
Noah:Can you go further into the depersonalization aspect? I cannot, Well.
Frank:I'd like to know what she means by that. Here's what this thing means Burnout is a state of emotional, mental and physical exhaustion caused by prolonged or repeated stress, often related to work or other areas of life such as parenting, caregiving or relationships, characterized by feelings of depletion, cynicism, emotional distance, exhaustion, mental distancing, cognitive impairment and emotional impairment, lack of motivation, sense of being beyond caring, fatigue, job dissatisfaction, changes in diet and tension headaches. Hmm, lack of motivation, sense of being beyond caring, fatigue, job dissatisfaction, changes in diet and tension headaches.
Noah:Hmm, yeah, I mean I'm riding the line on burnout for sure. Why are you burnout? Just doing too much?
Jake:Yeah it's just a little too much without a clear path forward. I'm fully willing to work hard to accomplish a an achievable uh if, like you know, big or audacious goal, that's great, but at this moment in time there's nothing's budget on the progress meter this is an interesting.
Noah:This is interesting to hear from you, based on everything else I've heard from you about work to this point, because it feels to me like you've taken lots of big steps we have and you're telling me now it feels like there's not a clear path to progress we took a lot of big steps and we got ourselves to a really nice spot, um, in terms of growth, but, but essentially, right now we're you okay.
Frank:I mean, that is just nasty coffee.
Noah:I thought that was the COVID twitches.
Frank:Could have been that.
Jake:As of now, we're in just an interesting game of Tetris. We essentially we flipped our business model to something that is much higher value, but if it's higher value, it means you're essentially performing more services or providing that value. Not all of them are super hands-on, but it's more, and we got our current clients into the new business model, which was a huge achievement, really awesome. We've got monthly recurring revenue at an all-time high, which is fantastic.
Jake:We've got them in longer-duration contracts, which is secure in a lot of ways, but when it came to actually delivering all of that, a two-person team and some contractors just isn't cutting it. We've taken a path toward getting a strategist to try to even out some of the work that we needed to accomplish, but at this moment in time we're at sort of an impasse where we need more sales to secure another role, like another project manager, which is really what we need right now. But if we get those more sales, that's more work for the current team before we get that project manager.
Noah:I relate hardcore to this. We are not nearly as organized as I'm sure that your company is. Some of that's probably my fault, a lot of it's not but all of the problems that you just described I have. So I relate hardcore and, yeah, I'm definitely burnt out. But there's another line for me that I can draw, a direct line that I can draw from that whole aspect of uh, like I don't know if you, I don't know what the proper term would be, but childhood wound or whatever, like taking care of my parents, like having to uh be responsible for someone else. I guess.
Noah:I feel that hardcore with my boss, okay, on top of all of these other things. So I feel like so it's personal, yeah, so I feel like it ties to some sort of emotional thing that's inside of me. It doesn't come out in emotional ways necessarily, but I think it exhausts me in the same way and on top of that, it gives me this feeling of I've got to pull all the weight, which is terrible see, I don't.
Jake:I don't feel like I'm pulling all the weight. I feel like I have communicated the issue, uh, on the ground and I'm essentially saying to my boss like, hey, I'm gonna keep things running, I'm gonna keep, uh, the ship floating here, but I need you to be doing stuff up there to make it worth my while. Like, I'll keep this going as long as I can, but you have to be strategizing and moving some big chess pieces to make this better soon. Um, and, and he and he is, I mean, where we're at right now is we're just kind of in a place where, um, we're acknowledging the things that we don't know, so, like for instance, this week, he let me know that he's uh in the process of talking to a fractional CFO, um, just to basically say, hey, here's our situation.
Jake:I need specialty, insight and strategy on how to move ourselves out of this.
Noah:Yeah.
Jake:Which I think is a fantastic move. Sure, that's what I would have suggested. We haven't been here before, so we don't know how to deal with this particular situation.
Noah:That makes sense. Where are you burnout?
Frank:Oh, hmm, that makes sense. Why are you burnout? Oh, I was thinking of, uh, not a specific type of burnout, just I just feel tired, but I think I'm sick right now and I do think even in Jake's uh scenario, he's experiencing a feeling, um, which is and I only I'm only saying this because it's a different feeling than he expressed, like a few days ago to me, and it may be a feeling for you too. I just don't know as much about your scenario, but a feeling is different than reality, maybe Oftentimes. I have recently felt very burnt out on some projects I've been working on, but feeling burnt out is sort of a part of challenging projects. I mean at least feeling like they're whatever, exhausting, depleted, taking distance from something.
Jake:Yeah, I'll just acknowledge that that is true, like I would agree. It's why, at the beginning, I said I don't know that I'm burnout. I don't know because, like the other day, you said, well, here's how I would solve that problem.
Jake:And my response was I don't see it as a problem. Like I have a really hard time latching onto it being a problem. I see it as a season and I think that's what you're saying. It is a part of the challenge. There is a moment where you keep going and it's not totally clear yet.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:And that is how I feel, but it's exhausting for sure.
Frank:Right, and I mean, if it's exhausting forever and it's hopeless, you should stop it. Right, for sure, right I'm not there yet, but if it's exhausting on the way to beautiful or something, then yeah, that's just a part of the deal.
Jake:Yep Agreed.
Frank:So I don't know. I mean, I'm definitely burnt out on having strep throat. I feel depleted, I feel cynical about it, I have emotional distance from it. I'm exhausted. I have cognitive impairment for sure. I lack motivation. I have a sense of being beyond caring. I have fatigue, I have headaches. It's really. I'm burnt out on it.
Jake:You know what that makes me think of. I like that phrasing, by the way. Exhausting on the way to beautiful I'm for it, that's great. That's just part of the journey. Beautiful I I'm for it. That's great. That's just part of the journey. Um, but you, you sort of called it out. You said you know, if it feels hopeless now, that's one thing, but if it stays hopeless for a long time, you should leave it. Um, there was, there's probably some wisdom. You introduced me to a book called, uh, necessary endings.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:What was I mean? Mean, like how would a person determine this is hopeless forever or this is hopeless for now?
Frank:like what was oh, he has steps in there. Um, but you would want to first just like. The way to do it systematically involves, like, first creating um, and there might be three steps or something, but I don't know the order necessarily. Anyways, it doesn't really matter, because you can apply whatever logical steps you want. But yeah, I think the first thing they do is um, ask the other, ask whatever the problem is in your life that you may be considering severing, to enforce a boundary on their own. So like, hey, I need you to please stop doing that. And then if the relationship is important for you to keep and they don't honor that, then you can try to enforce a boundary on your side. And if they don't honor that and it seems hopeless to change, then you know that you need to end it. Okay, gotcha, something like that.
Jake:Yeah, I gotcha. Noah, can you speak to any of that?
Noah:Publicly. I'm trying, I feel like I've recently heard you describe that process.
Frank:Yeah, I'm trying to not say these things publicly on a podcast that we publish publicly, publicly you may not even be there by then I mean I, I hope so.
Jake:I mean I hope so not to be what's the worst that could happen. You're describing the reality, the true situation, and someone goes. Wait a second.
Frank:That's really what's happening here well, that is one of the reasons you, um, should execute necessary endings, which is probably why I like that book so much. It's another version of lying which is just like stop doing that, because by continuing the relationship you're not okay with you. Let the other person know that it's okay to be that way.
Noah:Yeah, right, I am trying to end it, I know.
Frank:This wasn't directed at you as much as it feels like probably.
Jake:It's hard because I know you don't want to talk about it publicly. It's just you do seem to be in.
Noah:Yeah, I am in that situation for sure. It's unfortunate because I feel like we've made lots of good changes, minor because it's to get anything major done because of the circumstances is such a big haul, so you've got to make these tiny little incremental changes. The problem is the person I rely on the most to move everything forward. I don't think can be relied on to do it consistently. That's the unfortunate part.
Frank:So that's the situation I'm in. Yeah, so do you want the?
Noah:trust situation I would say, more than anything, yeah, yeah, which sounds even worse than it is, because I it's not um, it's trust in that. I don't think this person can self-regulate enough to follow through. It's not desire or something, or like it's not some sort of conniving, you know, I don't even know what the word I'm looking for is, but it's not. It's not purposeful.
Jake:Yeah, it's not malicious or something Right.
Frank:Yeah, I, yeah, I mean I would really recommend that book, um, because it did help me. It helped me change the conversation with my employer. That is still um, I still reap benefits from that choice, uh, to this day. So, and it talks, it's like, walks you through false hope versus real hope, whether there's a chance of change. So that it gets clear and uh, yeah it's a good book. Yeah, maybe.
Noah:I'll read it sometime. I have two books that I got on Audible a while back that I haven't even listened to. I need to find more time to try to consume that sort of content.
Frank:Don't do it, because as soon as you sit down and read a book, oh, yeah, this is a callback to yeah, it's a wordless callback.
Noah:It's a wordless callback to a thing we're going to cut out of the podcast you don't want to call back to something if it's not there.
Jake:You know what I mean. That's right, what's? The name of that book and who's it by.
Frank:Oh, it's Necessary Endings by Dr Henry Cloud. That's a nice name.
Jake:Kind of makes me feel like I'm getting a hug. Yeah.
Frank:Yep, I can tell you the synopsis if you want, but I don't know why you'd want that.
Noah:Yeah, I'd like that. I would not like that, so choose between us All right.
Frank:I'll give you half of the synopsis. Identify what needs to end. Accept that endings are a normal and necessary part of growth and change. Overcome internal resistance to endings. Distinguish between real hope and false hope. Have the courage to take action. Grieve the losses associated with the ending. Embrace new beginnings and possibilities.
Noah:Man, I really was hoping you would stop mid-sentence.
Frank:I stopped mid-sentence seven times man.
Noah:You did Mm-hmm, but I wanted an incomplete thought and it felt like that was a full thought. Yeah.
Jake:I gave you a. I was hoping you'd read just the second half all the way through.
Frank:In summary necessary endings while there.
Jake:It is Good job. I like that, and I truly love the concept of the necessary ending. It's interesting to me, and it's not undercut by what I'm about to say. It's interesting to me, though, that most people hear that and say, oh yeah, that's logical and I'm totally doing it when I need to, but so many of us are unaware of when we're actually compromising ourselves because we don't know ourselves first. We don't know when our boundaries are being crossed because we haven't actually delineated them.
Frank:Yeah, and there's the whole region beta paradox thing where you're like this um everyday, constant, chronic stressor. Couldn't be the problem in my life um yeah, it must be it must be some massive thing that's stabbing me that I can't find.
Jake:Yeah uh, I've found in my life that a huge red flag is when I am sort of finding ways to do as little as possible and still meet the standard. Meet the standard. If I'm doing that, jake's not in a good place. Jake has created some sort of distinction between work and life. I'm not finding fulfillment in what I'm doing and I am therefore trying to gain as much time away from what I'm doing as possible. That's not where I'm at right now. By any means. I actually do feel a great deal of buy in, investment in what I'm doing, but I think what I'm feeling is this question that's arising, which is how long is this going to last? Like is this a another week? Is this two months? Like is this another week, is this two months? I think I just need that, like I need a map that says you are here.
Noah:Yeah, and if you're already feeling that way, if it does last two, three, six, nine months, like how are you going to feel then?
Jake:Right, right, so it's. I don't know when we could segue into a project management conversation, but I talk about, uh, work and and management in terms of like, um, you know the one foot view, the 10 foot view, a hundred foot view, 10,000 foot view, and you know, if you're at the one foot view, if you're out in the field actually harvesting the vegetables or whatever you are, you are doing the task, you're at the one foot view Project management. I think the sweet spot is being able to seamlessly move between the 10 foot view and the 100 foot view. And the 10 foot view, you're looking over the field, you're. And the 10 foot view, you're looking over the field, you're watching everybody do their thing, you help them out when they need to. You zoom back out to the 100 foot view and you look at all your fields and you're like, okay, this project's going well, okay, that one's going to need my assistance here in a little bit. You know, and I can look at 510 fields at the 100 foot view and kind of get a good five 10 fields at the a hundred foot view and kind of get a good, good time, zoom back in when I need to.
Jake:Right now, the feeling of exhaustion is, um, that I feel like I'm at the 10 foot view 100% of the time and zooming out is becoming more and more difficult, which increases my anxiety, because I'm like I know there's something going on over there in field B, but, uh, I can't get to it.
Jake:I'm going to get to it as soon as I can, and that as someone who identifies strongly when anxiety is present. Um, that's, it takes energy. It is an exhausting experience. And then, on top of that, this idea that, hey, if I need to communicate the difficulties that I'm experiencing in order to strategize our way out now, all of a sudden, I have to find the leverage to get up to the 10,000 foot view for a short period of time and be like hey, so you see these moving pieces, that we're getting a log jam here, like I need you to be doing this. I got to go back down there, but take care of it up here while I'm while I'm gone, Um, and that's that's the difficulty is not being able to to see everything right now.
Frank:Have you tried Tascade?
Jake:Tascade, I like the smile on your face, like this is what he wants to hear.
Frank:This is it it sounds like you have not tried cascade.
Noah:It's not, I haven't have you only through you you haven't tried it, then I mean, you've sent me things that were, I think, meant to help me in some way, directly from taskade yeah, I've never tried it, I just thought you guys would like. You know what they say when life gives you tasks taskade. I just thought you guys would like it.
Frank:You know what they say when life gives you tasks, taskade. I never tried it. I could now.
Jake:Oh, tell me about it.
Frank:Tell you about it.
Jake:What made you think of Taskade after hearing my story?
Frank:Oh, it's all field management.
Noah:Wait a second. Are we sponsored by Taskade? I hope so. Oh wait, field management like literally, like yeah, what do you describe field? A field?
Jake:b gotcha.
Frank:Um, it really could help you. There are folders of workspaces, of fields, of projects, of tasks and subtasks. So it's project management software. Yeah, but it's extremely AI-driven, yeah, ugh, I hate that. Including it has AI worker components, so you can assign a task to an AI. I'm trying to be open-minded so hard right now as opposed to a human, or you could assign a task to an AI with a human to review it, or something like that.
Jake:Okay.
Frank:But for agencies it's supposedly been very good.
Noah:I really hate that everyone feels like they need to have some sort of AI feature. Like I'm not against AI as much as you might think I am, we use AI all the time for different, as a tool for different tasks. I think, it's very helpful. But this idea, everything like you, every day there's a new, there's a tool that we currently use, or I currently use in my personal life, or whatever. That's like, hey, try our new ai features.
Frank:And I'm like, no, not everybody needs this yeah, it's for sure, and so they've ruined some good apps with it already.
Noah:Drives me insane. They're like AI is the hot thing.
Frank:We have to add AI. Yeah, my, the food tracking app. I use gyroscope added AI features like mad over the last six months and it's atrocious. Now you open it and it's like hi, I'm Julie, you need to try meditation. Have you considered meditation? I know your name's, not Julie right, that's what I gets me so pissed.
Jake:Oh yeah, it's interesting. I I will say this I've run into three issues that I had to clean up. I will say this I've run into three issues. I will say this I've run into three issues over the last week that were a result of AI plus poor human quality assurance, and so I will acknowledge that it is not. You know, ai is only as good as the user. Okay, I get that you know, AI is only as good as the user.
Jake:Okay, I get that. It's, I think at this moment in time, when I feel so over capacity already, the ability to sort of refine a process around AI and getting it right feels like too much. It's. It's that whole 80, 20 thing Like right now I'm so inundated with the 80 that that 20 that might actually free me up later feels impossible well, here's yes, I agree with all of that.
Noah:But to take it a layer deeper, when you can't fully trust the work you're getting from the humans, which is a sometimes is a place I find myself in I definitely can't trust the work that I get from humans plus AI, because if they can't, even if if the human being can't even provide the, the work at a quality that I'm looking for yeah, I how can you expect them to check whatever the ai does?
Jake:that's the thing I feel like it's an even it's an even further step away. It's like I've outsourced my thoughts to this. I say it's good, and if I don't see anything just completely atrocious on the surface, then it must be fine.
Frank:Yeah.
Jake:That's problematic.
Frank:Yeah.
Noah:For sure. I mean, you can teach an AI to proofread for the problems you find annoying in AI generated content and remove them. Sure, but who's's gonna do that?
Frank:I mean, if you do it once, then you just run it through there yeah, I mean I.
Noah:I see what you're saying but then I'm trusting the AI well, you would have to.
Jake:It's all refining the process. Like you teach it to proofread, then you look at what it proofread and how it revised and you say this was good, this wasn't neat. I mean, you have to refine the proofreading process until you feel confident.
Frank:I think that's what Tascade does.
Frank:I mean, I I have looked at it before, I'm looking at it now and it's it looks atrocious to me, but, um, it honestly came up cause the other day I was looking for a new infinite outliner app that um has connected to do connected tasks. Basically, like, I want my tasks to flow to Acuflow and then when I'm in acuflow, I want to be able to click on them and take. Take me back to the context where I generated this task, which it does do that, but it does all these other atrocious things that I don't need. Um, but yeah, I think you can like give it some content. You can be like line this up for this ai worker and then, when they're done, have that ai worker do it and then this they do that convert it into a youtube short script, convert it into whatever blog post, apply this filter, you know, so you can have like a client like this is my client's uh persona, um, and then you run it through that and then all the other AI workers to get some outcome that you want.
Jake:So do you just like set aside three hours a week to research new apps or something? Why research new apps?
Frank:or something.
Jake:Why I mean I just don't know where you find the time to research new apps all the time. Um, is this one of your intentions in one of your apps?
Noah:yeah, because I have. I have a boss, yeah, who drives me insane doing the things that you do. It really is a bad thing for me. Doing what things? Researching things that don't matter.
Frank:I see, I don't know if that's the same thing I do.
Noah:Yeah, it feels like it. I'm telling you this is a feeling.
Jake:I recognize it as a feeling, if it would be better to go back to my question and the way I phrased it.
Frank:I forgot it. That would be fine, because Noah is a douchebag.
Jake:I'm just curious if you set aside specific time to be reviewing apps, or is it like I have a problem and my default is to find out what sort of automation might fix it?
Frank:Or is it?
Jake:something totally different.
Frank:Yeah, I don't know.
Noah:It's just sort of integrated with your life. It's just kind of what you always do, like you're always researching things, anything, I don't understand and I encounter I want to understand.
Frank:Yeah, so I think to understand. Yeah, so it's like that. I mean the thing I said I'm looking for I have. You know, I have an infinite outliner app that lets me put tasks in that I can link back from Ocuflow. Yeah, um, they don't get marked done in the source. Okay, gotcha, so that's the only problem. Yeah, feedback loop sort of piece. Yeah, but I don't go look in there for done undone tasks so I don't really care that they don't get marks done there.
Jake:Yeah, see this. I just I tasks, so I don't really care that they don't get marks done there. Yeah, see this. I just I'm. My brain is having a real hard time integrating that you did this what did I do?
Frank:I watched it. I watched a 45 second video on task 8, I think. Okay, I told you guys about it. This conversation reminded me of it and now I logged in and looked at it.
Jake:Oh, okay.
Frank:And it looks atrocious and that's kind of what I expected, gotcha. But you can type. I can type like hi, jake, and then a slash, and then I can send this to a roundtable AI agent. And that person that Taskade AI worker said hello, hello. It looks like you're reaching out to someone named jake, but just a reminder, you're currently interacting with a team of ai personas here to assist you. How can we help you today? If you have a question or task in mind that relates to business or professional field, share it with us and we'll dive into our roundtable discussion to provide you with the best insights. Jake is feeling a bit burnt out. How can he feel better so he can continue on his difficult path through the fields? Path through the fields? Rest and relaxation, physical exercise, healthy eating habits, adequate sleep, identify stressors, time management, employee assistance programs.
Jake:Sorry, what was that last one?
Frank:Employee assistance programs.
Jake:Is this like a link card or something?
Frank:No, EAP. You have EAP. I'm sure it's part of your health insurance, probably.
Jake:Oh, okay.
Frank:You can talk to a counselor for up to 12 sessions for free or something.
Jake:Oh gotcha.
Frank:Most health insurances give you it. Work-life balance, setting boundaries Prior, prioritize tasks check out Taskade. It doesn't say that, but it should Uh. Reassess your goals, set new goals, adjust your expectations, seek new opportunities.
Jake:This is terrible advice. I hate it all.
Frank:Tell him that.
Jake:All right.
Frank:This is terrible advice, say I'm already doing it all. I hate it all. Tell him that, all right, this is terrible advice Say I'm already doing it all. I hate it. Wait, he is already doing all of that and more.
Jake:Thank you.
Frank:I'm sorry. The previous information didn't meet your expectations. Is there anything else we can help you with?
Noah:It doesn't even offer more. You've tried it all.
Frank:Dang it.
Jake:It's a round table and everything.
Frank:How about a fun recipe? You reached your AI request limit. Subscribe. I like that. So that's Taskade. Thanks for checking that out with us, yeah. A couple of hours burnt on that.
Jake:I mean, I genuinely am in this situation where I haven't been here before. I love these places, I love the discomfort, I love the way it's pushing me to look at things from a new perspective. I am balancing more than I've ever balanced. That is not just a place to give up. It's a place to learn what tools I haven't used yet. Uh, that's the way I'm trying to look at it. I do feel really exhausted, as I mentioned, so it feels hard to find that new perspective. Um, but yeah, I would not consider this a hopeless situation. I do consider it temporary. I do know that it it will change and that it's for a reason and that it's actually, uh, working to build a foundation for something else. So I don't feel hopeless and that definitely keeps me going. Um, I will look into, uh, some other options and see if there's something I haven't thought about yet.
Frank:Cascade, cascade the thing about cascade is it is so colorful, literally, yeah. No, it's the most colorful task project app does it have a dark mode? Oh, it's a colorful dark mode. Yeah, um sort of looks like this oh, it's like gradients.
Jake:Yeah, I like solids.
Frank:It's real colorful, cool, but uh, I don't think it's for me. It could be, I could see doing it, but if I really wanted to generate revenue, I would use Taskade, but you don't.
Noah:No, you won't. That's a glowing endorsement.
Frank:I don't want to generate revenue because with revenue comes problems.
Noah:Business consulting with Frank.
Jake:Every time somebody, a new client, talks to him. So I want to grow revenue. Are you sure about that?
Noah:Here's the problem with revenue Problems about that.
Jake:Here's the problem with revenue problems yeah it's actually true that's the crazy part about this is how it's true.
Frank:I mean it's true and it's a part of client conversations for me. Yeah.
Jake:Yeah, absolutely.
Frank:What amount of money do you want to have flow in the door, where it won't be too many problems?
Jake:This is the number one obstacle. This is to me. How do I choose a sports team? It is arbitrary. It is like why do I want to run a $500 million a year company as opposed to a $500,000 a year company, or just running a company that meets my needs personally? Where is the impetus to grow? It doesn't exist in me, and that's why I find myself aligning with people who have that characteristic. Could you directly?
Noah:draw a line from what you just said, those examples to sports teams please.
Jake:Yes, it's like I can't even take the first step.
Frank:He's saying there's no difference between I want to make $10,000 a month, a hundred thousand dollars a month, and $500,000 a month, just as there's no difference between the Green Bay Packers, the Kansas city chiefs, the Colts.
Jake:Well, and it's like I could take it further. It's like, okay, so I've generated more revenue, but I also have more overhead. I suppose if I kept my profit margin to a certain degree, I'm increasing profit at that point. But, like to me, jake doesn't have the desire to do that. I love puzzles and I love solving those problems, but the actual desire to push forward and say, hey, if we 10 X star company, we could 10x our profits I guess this is similar to what I've said to you about owning a company.
Noah:I don't owning a company to me is like why I mean this is it's the revenue problem, like that just seems like problems. It is problems. I don't want to do that. I want to work for somebody else who has all the problems.
Frank:I don't even mind the problems I like get the problems with no revenue I know that's a problem too, but you know, and and often no control over the problems.
Noah:Outcome it's all problems.
Frank:Yeah, the real secret is not in wealth but in just becoming completely okay with continuous problems.
Jake:I want to draw a distinction, though. I don't have a problem with growth. I don't, and that's why I feel like I'm in a really fantastic position right now. I have someone else who dreams big plans for the future and wants to grow. I don't know where he got that. I don't, I don't have it. But alongside him he can say, hey, we're growing, this is the new problem, and I get to say, oh, here's the solution. That's great for me, that's fantastic. There's no problem with growing. I just don't have the thing. There's no problem with growing.
Jake:I just don't have the thing. Yeah, yeah, if someone else, you know, I would go to a sports game with someone who cared about it and they'd be like this is our team and they scored a goal, and I would feel some sort of like oh yeah, team scored a goal, you know, as opposed to one of the teams scored a goal. I guess that was the point of this. I guess that was the point of the game that happened here.
Frank:That's why they call it the goal zone. Right in football, right the goal zone yes, yeah, they're right.
Noah:That's correct 100. Please say that to people at the game Goal zone.
Jake:Got the thing to the goal zone. Well guys, this conversation has been riveting.
Noah:It has been, I didn't know. Frank went to the notorious BIG school of business, but his overarching philosophy is more money, more problems yeah, it's true.
Frank:I don't know that I'd consider it. My overarching philosophy seems like it. That's just do what you think is cool, okay, and the everything you need in life will follow speaking of uh, I saw my sister yesterday and she said Speaking of what?
Jake:You're going to find out. Okay, I saw my sister yesterday and she said that her boyfriend's nephew, who is three years old, is only ever referred to as Fat Daddy.
Noah:Shouldn't he at least be a little Fat Daddy?
Jake:he's fat. Yeah, you know you would think so. You would think so.
Noah:He's got to grow into the fact he needs to be a little fat daddy for a while.
Jake:But this is like I haven't seen the three-year-old, but like, imagine a three-year-old and you're just. I love it so much.
Noah:That's how legends are made.
Jake:So the connection here was Big Papa Okay.
Frank:Wow, Thanks guys. That's it, huh. No closing remarks. That was the closing remark. No good closing remarks.
Jake:Wait this podcast is over. Yeah, okay, we have to do a planning session.
Frank:Oh yeah, we're going to do a planning session now.
Jake:Thanks guys.