Coal Mines & Hallucinated Snakes: Navigating Fear and Risk

Noah: 0:45

I think that I watched all of Flight of the Conchords when we lived in Florian.

Frank: 0:49

So you had to have the volume at one. Yeah.

Noah: 0:53

This is the second reference to Florian in two days I bought the DVD sets at Best Buy.

Jake: 1:00

Yeah, mm-hmm, maybe even Circuit City, but I'm pretty sure it was Best Buy yeah.

Frank: 1:06

It was pre-Blu-ray, for sure. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Noah: 1:11

We talked about DVDs yesterday.

Frank: 1:12

Yeah, it was pre-Blu-ray, for sure, oh yeah, we talked about DVDs yesterday too.

Noah: 1:16

Talked about what DVDs? Yesterday too. Digital video discs.

Frank: 1:17

Oh, we did.

Noah: 1:18

And Redbox Redbox. Somehow there are two Redboxes outside of the Walgreens in Maryville.

Jake: 1:25

Yes, redbox came along just in time for a little blip on on the radar. I mean, I'm sure they transitioned to something, but they didn't have the model that Netflix had, where they were able to actually develop like a streaming service on their red boxes outside of Walgreens. Yes, yeah. It wasn't quite as scalable. I definitely used red box a time or two. Sure, we all did Mm-hmm, but I mean it was just. It was such a blip Like it. They're still there man Maryville.

Jake: 2:03

I don't think that's how you pronounce that Probably right here too.

Frank: 2:07

Yeah, you are pronouncing it like you're from Kentucky. Yeah, how that right here too?

Noah: 2:10

yeah, you are pronouncing it like you're from kentucky. Yeah you, how do you say maryville?

Jake: 2:15

yes, amateurs I remember you've got a real louisville type vibe to your marvel maryville I remember when I was taught how to say we were taking a trip to Kentucky, I must have been eight or nine years old and there was this very old retired couple that my dad did yard work for. They were in their 90s, originally from Kentucky, and they asked us where we're going and we said Louisville. And they said no, what you mean to say is lovel. It's the word oval, with an L in front of it.

Noah: 2:56

Lovel.

Frank: 2:59

Nice.

Noah: 2:59

Do we want some merival facts?

Frank: 3:04

Merival facts.

Noah: 3:05

Yeah, their motto is come grow with us.

Jake: 3:09

Wait, this is the comic book maker, marvel. Marvel With like Iron man.

Noah: 3:16

Madison County.

Frank: 3:20

Illinois. I've never watched our levels before. You're in every track. Why, I don't know. Man, man, especially when you talk with energy, that why wasn't with energy?

Jake: 3:36

yeah, it's. It's not often you talk with energy when you do coal mining was historically the principal industry in maryville.

Noah: 3:46

I believe that incorporated in j July 21st of 1902.

Jake: 3:51

Yeah, because it's right next to Glen Carpon, which is the Glen of Carbon, which I believe is the French word for coal, coal, coal, coal mining Glen Carpon.

Noah: 4:07

So, since we're talking about how to pronounce towns around here, okay, you know, when I bought a house in Edwardsville.

Jake: 4:13

I had to get mine, Some word that you never heard of before. Unless you have to have that type of insurance, insurance insurance.

Frank: 4:21

Yeah.

Jake: 4:22

Yeah, it's like live over mine insurance basically but it's got some title like escarpment or something. Oh nice.

Noah: 4:31

Potential mine collapse Basically yeah.

Jake: 4:36

No, we didn't actually have to get it, we had to look into it. There's actually a mine map.

Noah: 4:40

Oh, you have to look into it.

Jake: 4:41

yeah, and we were on this little island of, not on a mine.

Noah: 4:48

I always like the insurances that you have to look into but not get.

Jake: 4:52

My neighbors had to get it.

Frank: 4:55

Escarpment seems like it could be the results of the thing it's not.

Jake: 5:00

That means like escape in some way right.

Frank: 5:02

It means a long, steep slope, especially one at the edge of a plateau, separating areas of land at different heights. Okay, well, it is the result of a mine separating areas of land at different heights.

Jake: 5:11

Okay, so it is the result of a mine collapse, is an escarpment sure, I meant that it is a word like escarpment, in that it's a word you never use, but you could look it up. What is what type?

Noah: 5:26

of insurance is there? Google what mine like escarpment mine, insurance. What is like escarpment Mine insurance, but for insurance Like escarpment. And then also please tell me if that has any monthly search volume.

Frank: 5:42

I perplexed it, so I can't do that part.

Noah: 5:45

I know.

Frank: 5:49

They didn't acknowledge the question. How did you phrase the question? What is like escarpment? Don't do that and then it just told me what escarpment is, what is a mine collapse insurance?

Noah: 6:11

Subsidence insurance. Maybe that's what it was.

Jake: 6:16

That doesn't ring a bell. But maybe it was mine subsidence, Because the mine subsides instead of continuing to yeah. So you see how subsidence and escarpment are kind of in the same category of word yeah three syllables, and all in words that you don't use.

Noah: 6:40

Oh yeah, words that you have to google can we please try to use subsidence at least 15 times in this podcast?

Jake: 6:47

yes, yeah we could call it fear and subsidence in edwardsville. I'm sorry, edwardsville yeah, edwardsville, erisville you got a real lean to your search man.

Frank: 7:05

You're like it's because of this microphone. Okay.

Jake: 7:09

I thought you just really get into it.

Frank: 7:10

I can smash the microphone out of the way.

Jake: 7:12

Sort of a, a gangsta search.

Frank: 7:15

All right, I asked perplexity. What are the top 10 ways escarpment and subsidence are in the same category of word. Oh my, I apologize, but escarpment and subsidence are not in the same category of words.

Noah: 7:30

Wait a second. Can you please tell me what all categories of words are?

Jake: 7:34

This is a Turing test that is not getting passed right now.

Frank: 7:38

Which categories of words did you evaluate for?

Jake: 7:46

Nouns adjectives latin derivatives uh, it doesn't understand I now understand why it doesn't think they're in the same category.

Frank: 7:57

It doesn't think categories exist yeah, it says that it evaluated synonyms and related words for the terms escarpment and subsidence yeah, perplexity has got a real unit of consciousness sort of thing.

Jake: 8:10

This is non-dual.

Frank: 8:14

Oh, I can turn pro on and see. Oh yeah, what about from a non-dual perspective?

Noah: 8:25

Oh, Jake.

Frank: 8:27

Please provide more context or specify the type of non-dual perspective you are referring to oh man, we have to tell you about you are thinking and you need to do better if you want to really enjoy life. Enjoy life.

Jake: 8:51

The trick to enjoying life is to understand the non-dual nature of things.

Noah: 9:01

But really, project duality onto them. Well, last night we saw a man who can only be described as the perfect merging of Jake Tolbert andbert and jake seabuck it's truth, he had the hat dude he had everything, everything he was. I wish I could have recorded this man for you. He had some sort of zebra shirt-esque belt accessory. I don't even understand what it was. Hold on a second. I'm going to do my best to describe this man he had Well. First of all, the face was a perfect of you and Tolbert.

Noah: 9:44

It was like if you guys ran at each other at a thousand miles an hour. And he was short like you, but maybe slightly taller.

Jake: 9:54

That's the jake tolbert part but he was short and tall and that's why he was jake tolbert's not tall right right, he was certainly medium but in a

Noah: 10:04

small way, but in a small way so he was average.

Frank: 10:07

he wore his clothes as though he were tiny His clothes were Jake Seabock.

Noah: 10:13

They were Jake Seabock sized.

Frank: 10:16

And tightness and fitted. They were Jake Seabock fitted. For sure he had slacks on, but they weren't Jake Seabock fashion Well they were.

Jake: 10:26

They were Jake Tolbert.

Noah: 10:27

No, no, they were somehow. But they were also somehow, jake Tolbert, they were real plaid, you have to understand this is the perfect mesh of you two yeah it really was. So the clothing man we should have asked him for a picture.

Jake: 10:40

So it was fitted and baggy at the same time.

Frank: 10:43

No, Maybe the shirt was a little baggy.

Noah: 10:45

I should have just walked up to this man and said Listen, you are. I can't explain it except for you are a perfect mash of two friends named jake, and I would like to take a picture of you, please, and find out if your name is jake exactly.

Jake: 11:01

If he did, you'd be like, oh my god, so so he had.

Noah: 11:04

Like I can confirm though you cannot it Dark charcoal or maybe black slacks. He had a fitted red.

Frank: 11:14

Slacks feels a little slack for what they were, but they were pants.

Noah: 11:21

They were fitted pants Right and he had a red fitted plaid shirt on. He had a what is that cap called the? Capper, whatever it wears, but it was black and white. It didn't match anything else he was wearing well, it might match his belt accessories maybe I didn't even see his belt, I was, so I.

Noah: 11:47

I mean I as soon as I saw him, I turned around and said Frank, this is I w. I walked beeline to Frank and I said this is super important. That man over there is as if they merged the Jake's merged into that man. Wow, and so was this at boobaloo improv shop. Oh nice, he had he had a a thick but well manicured beard Um no glasses. Oh, he was bald Um. I don't know what his shoes, his manner is the way he moved was very T-Bock. I mean, it was creepy, to be honest with you.

Frank: 12:39

It was creepy. It was pretty weird.

Jake: 12:41

I am actually disappointed that you didn't just get up the courage.

Noah: 12:46

I should have asked him.

Frank: 12:48

I should have. I'll tell you what happened for me Is, when I looked at him, I got a sense that people felt like I was looking at him and I stopped, so I couldn't go forward.

Noah: 13:03

Yeah, he stood at the bar like you. He was a real unicorn. You know how you stand at the bar.

Jake: 13:08

Yeah, he stood like this no, that's not what I'm talking about he stood at the bar, like you.

Noah: 13:17

Anyway, it was creepy and we couldn't decide if he was jake siebert or jake tolbach, but he's one of those two.

Frank: 13:29

Yeah.

Jake: 13:30

I appreciate this story. I really, really do.

Noah: 13:34

I think the only place that you might have luck in seeing this man is back at the improv shop.

Jake: 13:38

I was going to say yeah, I was kind of sad to hear that it was in St Louis and not here because here is smaller.

Noah: 13:45

Yeah, there, I mean, maybe he's from here. You never know, could be you were.

Frank: 13:50

Yeah, that's true, most of us were.

Noah: 13:54

What the ones in our group yeah.

Frank: 13:56

Oh yeah.

Noah: 13:57

Right yeah, 100% of the ones in our group, edwardsville.

Jake: 14:02

Yeah, it's a pretty nice sample.

Frank: 14:05

That's the most. That's the most most you can have. Yeah.

Jake: 14:11

I don. That's the most population, that's the most most you can have. Yeah, I don't know if that's true, but I also don't know what you said okay, yeah, go for it.

Frank: 14:18

Imagine that there's a cold hot sort of timeline. Do you think of cold and hot on a timeline? Yeah?

Jake: 14:26

it goes up and down.

Frank: 14:28

Yeah, and so you want one end to be least and one end to be most.

Jake: 14:58

Okay, most time and least time, percentages Okay.

Frank: 15:05

Yeah, so out of the group the most people were from Edwardsville. What is the most most people you can have expressed as a percentage 100. So it's the most most.

Jake: 15:23

I got you.

Frank: 15:24

You said it yourself.

Jake: 15:25

But what if there was a group of people from a different place who also were 100, but they had 17 people in their group? Then they would be the most, most yeah, but you need to think from a non-dual perspective well, guys, I think that we have all now taken a stab at describing something we never should have tried to describe. Mine is subsidence.

Noah: 16:05

Yeah.

Jake: 16:06

Yours is Tolbach and yours is most, most no no, no, I think I like Siebert better.

Noah: 16:12

Okay, I did for a moment moment consider what it would have been like to be in a band with jake seabird. You were no, no, just seabird, like both of you combined into one person. What would that have been like? Sort of benevolent and malevolent I mean both wanting to dictate the band and also quit it at the same time.

Jake: 16:36

I think we did. I think we both wanted it to be folk and we both wanted it to be rock.

Noah: 16:43

And both over. Yeah, man, I just.

Jake: 16:49

I hope so, if I ever I will.

Noah: 16:51

I promise. If I ever see this man again, I will walk up to him and say look, I know this is weird yeah.

Jake: 16:57

But here's the deal. That's what regret will do to you, you know a lot of people say regret is a bad thing, but actually it inspires action.

Noah: 17:05

You look like the perfect mesh of two Jakes I was in a band with and I need to take a photo of you if that's okay, and if he says no, I'm taking it.

Jake: 17:13

Anyway. If he dresses like that, he's gonna say yes, I yeah, I know he.

Noah: 17:20

But his mannerisms, like seriously, he stood at the bar and sort of moved like you oh, so you need to take a video but I said this to frank the after I had thought about taking a photo, trying to sneak a a photo, I said I wanted to take a photo but then I realized I needed to take a video Because it's not just the looks, but he stood at the bar with you or like you. I mean kind of moved like you, but he also sort of had Tolbert's posture, definitely, and also like Tolbert's sort of like aloof, sort of like presence. You know what I'm saying.

Frank: 17:58

Okay, he had a slight ego override on his very laid back presence. Yeah, so, like when he needed to interact with the bartender, he decided to peacock.

Jake: 18:11

Yeah.

Frank: 18:12

And then he went back to like sort of.

Noah: 18:13

I mean, it's just, you know, it's kind of this like standing at the bar, kind of like this Uh-huh.

Jake: 18:23

Yeah, okay, I got it, I got it. Yeah, you gotta get your head on a swivel. That's called hypervigilance, not peacocking.

Frank: 18:35

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you're right I'm the closest I know you're not, let's go. Why, why not?

Noah: 18:41

just stop it anyway, it was amazing.

Frank: 18:45

That was the best part of last night did you know that the uh cognitive limit to the number of stable social relationships a person can have exists as a concept, is 150 and is called Dunbar's number?

Jake: 19:02

I didn't know that.

Noah: 19:09

Perfect, and I really thought one was the number based on how I feel I could have one social relationship. You define subsidence so we can talk about it accurately. I already did, didn't I? I don't know but. But you don't ask the right sources for definitions. Usually you ask some new AI thing that somebody made that you're trying out.

Frank: 19:45

What specific aspects of subsidence would you like to know about?

Noah: 19:49

Well, I think the definition might be helpful.

Frank: 19:51

Causes, effects, prevention. Effects prevention, mitigation and definition that's the definition of subsidence no, those are the areas we want to know about. Subsidence refers to the downward vertical shift of the earth's surface characterized by minimal to no horizontal movement wait, subsidence is literally that, I feel like it's a sinkhole is what it sounds like. Yeah, it's caused by natural processes like dissolution of carbonate, rock sediment compaction, lava withdrawal, tectonic forces, as well as human activities including mining and fluid extraction.

Noah: 20:27

Hmm, mm-hmm, oh. It says like a sinkhole suddenly opening.

Frank: 20:32

It can lead to significant issues such as sinkholes, especially in karst terrains where limestone dissolution creates underground voids.

Noah: 20:43

Do you guys want to hear a K?

Jake: 20:45

or a C K.

Noah: 20:46

Karst, you want to hear the use in a sentence from dictionarycom. I would love to. The racetrack was abandoned because of subsidence of the track you can I like that you could change anything.

Frank: 21:00

You could put anything in there.

Noah: 21:01

Really, but that's that's the example sentence the sub.

Frank: 21:06

The starbucks was what. I don't even remember how quickly after the subsidence.

Jake: 21:11

do you think it was abandoned Because those guys were going pretty fast?

Noah: 21:16

I don't know.

Frank: 21:21

It has to be the Earth's surface, I guess.

Noah: 21:23

There's a photo of a subsided house called the Cricket House, the result of 19th century mining subsidence in Staffordshire, England.

Jake: 21:32

Staffordshire.

Noah: 21:34

Yeah. Causes Dissolution of limestone Mining, extraction of petroleum and natural gas, earthquake.

Frank: 21:47

Over 80% of identified subsidence in the US results from groundwater exploitation.

Jake: 21:54

Oh, that makes sense, I have a new podcast idea. We're on top of it.

Noah: 21:57

Let's just look up things and read factual information.

Jake: 22:01

You know, the Ogallala Aquifer is going to run dry Today we're reading the Wikipedia entry for subsidence.

Noah: 22:12

Today we're reading the Wikipedia entry for subsidence. It's at least semi-factual.

Frank: 22:20

I actually like the idea Because of how quickly language and culture seems to be evolving. I don't think it would take immediately, but I think people would love to go back and hear about what you know, maybe something a little sure, a little more edgy than subsidence was today.

Jake: 22:41

Well, there's, there's this other aspect of it. Like you know, my son watches YouTube videos of people watching people play video games and don't? It's fine. And what if people listened to other people going down Wikipedia rabbit holes? Yeah what's that?

Frank: 23:04

game. Have you ever played that game? Maybe, you get a starting and an ending point and you race each other.

Noah: 23:14

Six degrees of separation, six degrees of Kevin Bacon Kevin Bacon.

Frank: 23:19

It's like that, but you start with Italian restaurant on Wikipedia and you have to get to Adolf Hitler.

Jake: 23:27

Yeah. Oh, that's easy and you race each other.

Noah: 23:31

The only way you can get there is through clicking on things in the Wikipedia man I didn't bring a computer, but I know what we're doing later racing and you did use one of the words that are forbidden on this podcast just now yeah, but not in the same way jake uses it it's good.

Jake: 24:02

How does jake use? I'm not gonna elaborate he doesn't want that on the podcast. He's gonna imply how do you use it? It's better if it's implied.

Frank: 24:12

Yeah, I wouldn't do that to him, I would only imply that to him.

Noah: 24:17

Yeah, Anyway, it does sound fun. I think the idea is fun. The game I mean. I don't know if it'd be a good idea.

Jake: 24:26

It's similar to the movie game. There's a movie game. I mean it's a game that Noah and I have never stopped playing.

Noah: 24:35

We haven't played it in a while, though.

Jake: 24:37

Yeah, it's true, but it's never like you stop the movie game. It's more like it just pauses for two years and then it comes back. Do you remember which actor we were on?

Noah: 24:48

last. I do not. We could pick it up. I do not.

Jake: 24:51

I have definitely overheard this movie game in my past and I was like you guys are so annoying every time the movie game is where you start with a movie and, uh, you connect it to another movie via based on some actor in the common actor yeah, now, the trick of the movie game is that you know most people would be like well, who is the lead actor?

Noah: 25:15

The common actor.

Jake: 25:38

Yeah, jack Black was a minor character in Airborne. I mean the 1993 classic about skateboarding. I stopped watching movies, so I don't know how good I'd be, I know.

Noah: 25:50

That's the problem. We only talk about movies from 1985 to 2007, or something like that. Yeah, 2007 or something like that, yeah.

Frank: 26:03

I was much less expressive of my internal ideas when you were playing that game, but all I could think every time was why do they care who actors are like enough to remember?

Jake: 26:17

That's a fascinating question. I don't know. I don't know that I care.

Noah: 26:21

It's an automatic process Somehow. You remembered it. Yeah, remember, don't know. I don't know that I care. It's an automatic process Somehow you remembered it. Yeah, remember everything.

Frank: 26:26

Yeah, because I like a time or two I considered it, I'm like I'll do this. I'm like I don't know an actor's name.

Noah: 26:31

I can't think of one actor's name. I understand that as a five you don't know anything and it's really hard for you it is.

Jake: 26:39

Knowledge acquisition is difficult I also know that as a five, you know everything you don't have to know the actor's name, though, unless you get called out, which you won't because that's embarrassing for the other person oh, I never considered this, yeah so you just the more obscure better, because no one's going to call you out.

Frank: 27:00

They haven't seen that, they don't know anything about it.

Jake: 27:03

Well, I know a lot of things about things I haven't seen. You do I called out movies that I didn't see all the time?

Noah: 27:10

Yeah, Edward Harris was in that Ed Harris, no, not Ed Harris.

Jake: 27:22

Edward Harris.

Noah: 27:26

Yeah, At some point we're going to know connecting them by the third key grip instead of wow, yeah, um, sarah wright played blonde number three.

Frank: 27:34

It's 8 55 what do you think?

Jake: 27:37

I think this has been an entertainment it's just on the time scale of the clock of today.

Noah: 27:45

We're on that, we could call this episode shooting the shit.

Frank: 27:50

I don't think this is an episode, my friend.

Jake: 27:53

It's getting close. You know what, guys, that makes me think it's time for a transition this has been transitions with jake I don't know what to talk about.

Frank: 28:14

It says fear. Episode types anxiety, anger, imposter syndrome. Callbacks question mark possible meanings what could be the action signal? I got nothing. Back's question mark possible meanings what could be the action signal? I got nothing. Um, and I don't get the sense that we're in like a real, I want to share about my deepest fears type of vibe right now I can get there okay, name some. Give me the rank order list of your top 150 over there, I got to build a bridge.

Jake: 28:44

I got a bridge, though. Well, I got some bricks. Do you build bridges with bricks?

Frank: 28:50

Not usually Used to, but they don't really work Okay.

Jake: 29:01

Mortar is erodible. Erodible, yes, so you can't road with it.

Frank: 29:06

You can't erodible. Eerodible, yes. So you can't road with it, you can't erode it.

Jake: 29:09

You can road, it Erode like a bridge.

Frank: 29:16

No Like erosion.

Jake: 29:23

Because all the bridges is a road over water.

Frank: 29:31

Or some other subsided area. I don't think they build bridges out of bricks A road over troubled water?

Jake: 29:34

I thought subsidence was that area right under the siding of your house.

Noah: 29:38

Now you understand how I got to Borealis.

Frank: 29:41

Yes, Do you need to pee? Check in with yourself. Do a body scan meditation, starting with your forehead. That's not where I started.

Jake: 29:52

I went to my bladder man.

Frank: 29:55

We're gonna work our way down.

Jake: 29:56

It's poking.

Frank: 30:00

What do you notice in your forehead?

Jake: 30:06

It doesn't exist.

Frank: 30:08

Oh man, I gotta. I knew that would help him. This has been something else. Did they add a really bright light right there? This has been something else. Did they add a really bright light right there? I don't know.

Noah: 30:31

Seems like it. Maybe we just don't ever turn those lights on.

Frank: 30:34

Can we go back to that? We can, can we turn the real bright lights off.

Noah: 30:41

I think maybe that's killing our mood no, I think those might be they were our only hope those might, those might be on normally actually hindsight you know you have to think about the death of a mood as the birth of another that's what uh

Frank: 31:03

you have to thank you for that. It will help me in my journey yeah, so I.

Jake: 31:16

I heard alan watts talk about this thing a long time ago, um and it was brought back to mind this morning

Noah: 31:26

man, I actually think that might have been the cleanest transition ever. Like I'm really, I'm not editing this one, so I guess I don't care, but that would have been a real nice starting point for somebody do it again, man.

Frank: 31:41

I thought there should be a hook on this beat because some people who I know, when you say the word alan watts, fall asleep.

Noah: 31:52

Well, do you want to name that person?

Frank: 31:57

most of the people I know okay.

Jake: 31:59

Do they know who alan watts is?

Frank: 32:01

yeah, they've heard him on some video once and they were like that guy put me to sleep. He is a masterful public speaker his pauses are so long he's a master of sounding like he was recorded on a cassette immediately after smoking an entire pack of cigarettes yeah, that's what we sound like a lot on this podcast.

Jake: 32:35

Well, it's because of the cigarettes I don't think you can actually get the phlegmy laugh unless you have smoked for 50 years or strep throat yeah.

Noah: 32:52

You got cold in here after we turned the lights back on.

Jake: 32:54

You know, I recently had strep throat and my laugh was really phlegmy. You know what that makes me think of Alan Watts? He had a really phlegmy. You know what that makes me think of Alan Watts? He had a really phlegmy laugh because of all the smoking. Oh, is that the sort of hook you were hoping for?

Frank: 33:10

No, it's like a tweet version of the whole idea you're about to share.

Noah: 33:19

Oh Okay, like this reminds, me of something alan watts said about the nature of reality when you're in heaven. Yeah, that's a good thing. Alan watts talks a lot about alan watts talks a lot about the nature of heaven.

Frank: 33:40

Yeah, reality in heaven, he sort of, does he really?

Jake: 33:46

does I mean I? What I'm about to say is about that I suppose so.

Frank: 33:50

I know I tried to give you a hook on this, all right.

Jake: 33:55

So I saw this tweet and it said man, what this feels real, performative. You're not supposed to say I saw this tweet. I did, though that's how this whole thing started.

Noah: 34:08

Okay, good, all right. Everything is performative.

Jake: 34:12

Yeah.

Frank: 34:13

Yeah, yeah. You just are used to performing for your own ego. I want you to perform for mine.

Jake: 34:21

Okay, got it. How do we do this without laughing?

Frank: 34:28

What were we talking about? Embrace laughing, it's fine. Oh, embrace laughing. You were talking about the nature of the reality of heaven as described by Alan Watts, something like that.

Jake: 34:39

Well, we said that we were going to talk about fear and anger and some emotions like that today. The fear episode, the fear episode. Right, it was going to be called Fear and Subsidence in Edwardsville, and it was In my mind it was going to be called that.

Noah: 34:58

When you bought a house in Edwardsville and you were told that you needed subsidence insurance insurance.

Frank: 35:02

You needed to look into subsidence, did it?

Noah: 35:05

did it create a new fear for you?

Jake: 35:08

well, it was certainly elucidated. An element of reality. I wait a second to that point.

Noah: 35:14

Had not been aware my house could just collapse into the ground, I mean, yeah, think about it.

Jake: 35:22

Insurance doesn't keep your house from actually just falling into the ground, right, it just is there in case it does.

Noah: 35:29

They're like, hey, this is probably going to happen, it's likely enough.

Jake: 35:34

You need the insurance.

Noah: 35:35

Actually, it's probably going to happen.

Frank: 35:39

I would love to talk about this topic. I think people don't know what insurance is sort of like thermostats in that way. They're categorically the same. It really is and the way you described it's perfectly true and I think more people need to know about this.

Jake: 36:02

The people need to know.

Frank: 36:04

It's one of the most annoying things that I ever hear and I hear it a lot that my insurance doesn't even pay for me to go to the doctor, and it's like that's not what it's for. Insurance is insuring against catastrophic loss which may happen to you, but it isn't what happens when you have a cold.

Noah: 36:29

For sure. Fair enough, yeah, but to be fair, the things that we've done to health insurance. It doesn't make it easier for people to understand.

Frank: 36:46

No for sure, Not, I don't. Yeah, yeah, I don't think that at all. But yeah, it is strange that we call it insurance. Yeah still, because it's almost no one who gets it thinks that's what it is, except the insurance companies. They're like no, it's still just that, oh for sure, but they health, the whole health care industry're like no, it's still just that, oh for sure, but they health.

Noah: 37:04

The whole healthcare industry was like okay, we're going to use this and we're going to charge thousands of dollars for these things and the insurance companies will pay for it.

Frank: 37:14

Yeah.

Noah: 37:14

And then now, if you need to go to the doctor for something, you have to have it or you can't afford it.

Frank: 37:21

Yeah, I took. Go to the doctor for something. You have to have it or you can't afford it. Yeah, I took a college course in this. Was it called? I don't know what it's called, never mind. It was like health care economics and financial reimbursement or something. But um, in the first chapter of that book they say some sentence like the united United States healthcare system is 100 times more complicated than any nearest economic system in the world today, or something. It's the only exchange of value in which the payer, the patient and the prescriber do not have any direct relationship. The doctor gives you what the insurance will pay for, right, the insurance pays for whatever they want. They tell you what to pay them. There's no real relationship between any of these things. No, the doctor can't say the best thing for you is to do this. They have to say the best thing your insurance will pay for is this, right, right.

Jake: 38:31

The whole thing's crazy. It truly is, yeah.

Frank: 38:36

I wasn't trying to take you away from fear and loathing.

Noah: 38:38

I just like that. What would Alan?

Jake: 38:40

Watts say about that. I have no idea what Alan Watts would say. I don't know the state of insurance at the time that he was living.

Noah: 38:47

Do you have a pertinent tweet to talk about? I don't in any way have that?

Jake: 38:56

No, what I was going to say is we were going to talk about fear, and I don't know what in the world to say about that. I have some stuff to talk about fear and I don't know what in the world to say about that, but I have some stuff to say about other things.

Jake: 39:08

What I was gonna say is that, um, I heard alan watts talk about this idea called the backwards law at one time and, uh, he, he was really weird. He, he liked to say things in in goofy ways that I think at the time were like kind of pushing the limits. You know to call it that Because there was all this like sort of social propriety and all that type of stuff and he was kind of in those circles. But anyway, he called it the backwards law idea about the nature of like psychodynamics in the world, where the more that I want something, the less uh sort of content in that field I will feel if I, the more I want to be rich, the more I will never actually uh, be satisfied by any amount of money. So, regardless of what I make today, it's never enough, right, it's that sort of thing. So in a way, the backwardsness here is needing to not want something so much so that you actually experience the feeling of having it.

Jake: 40:19

And the only way that this got connected in any way to fear is that I shared a moment with Sam Harris this morning. I don't know if it was the same moment he was having, but it was the one about hope. And now hope is actually a way that we wish for the present moment to be different than it is Typically. Think of it as like this positive thing. Right, but he said it's actually the other side of fear. Fear is like hoping that reality is not going to be the worst thing that we can imagine, and hope is hoping that reality will be better than it currently is. Um, there are two sides of the temperature scale most, most, least, least sort of.

Jake: 41:12

Thing yeah and uh. So when I think of fear, I do think of it in those terms. It's like what is the thing that I am hoping isn't true about this present moment? It's usually not actually what's happening, it's something far worse than what's happening. But I may be wasting my present moment worried about something that will never happen. I've wasted all my emotional dollars on something that I will never actually have to encounter.

Noah: 41:56

Yeah, we once talked about Mark Twain saying something like that once on a podcast, once before Once.

Jake: 42:02

Oh, and we talked about that once. Mm-hmm. Hmm, once upon a time when we talked about it.

Frank: 42:08

I do think that fear and insurance have a strong relationship 100%.

Jake: 42:17

Yes, they do.

Frank: 42:20

So I asked an AI solution in the world today that remains unnamed. Would you like to give it a?

Jake: 42:30

name Like Alice.

Frank: 42:35

What does Alan Watts say about insurance? What do you think it said I don't know, I don't know, I don't know something about heaven. And alan watts, a renowned philosopher, did not specifically comment on insurance in the context of financial planning or risk management. I didn't ask anything about those, they just hallucinated that I cared about this, aren't we all? His teachings in quotes focus on broader philosophical and existential topics, such as the nature of reality, the self and the interconnectedness of all things. However, watts did discuss the concept of risk and freedom in relation to society and personal responsibility. In a quote that can be loosely related to the idea of insurance. He said but when no risk is taken, there is no freedom. It is thus that in an industrial society, the plethora of laws made for our personal safety convert the land into a nursery and the policemen hired to protect us become self-serving busybodies.

Jake: 43:45

I am glad that I didn't try to guess what he said, because I would have looked like a damn fool do you think that ai helps or hurts our conversations?

Noah: 44:11

I think it helps them.

Frank: 44:12

Okay, that quote is health care insurance. It really is. In an society, the plethora of laws made for our personal safety convert the land into a nursery, and policemen hired to protect us become self-serving busybodies.

Jake: 44:31

Yeah, yeah, I totally get what you're saying there. I mean it's a great analogy. I'm trying to create a connection here. I mean, insurance essentially exists to, like you said, it's there in case of catastrophic loss.

Jake: 44:56

So there are fears that I could imagine, I could conceive of right now that I don't have insurance for. I don't have insurance for massive earthquakes or shark bites or stuff like this. But the more that the fear comes closer to reality you know a stunt person who drives motorcycles all the time probably has each limb insured far more than I've got any of my limbs insured. And so it's like there is some meter that we have for how realistic our fears are and we want to be insured for those. But it's kind of interesting that we don't pay attention to that meter very much when it comes to, like, our daily experience. How often are we saying like oh man, I'm afraid of this, but should I be? Like, is it worth it? Oh man, I'm afraid of this, but should I be? Is it worth it? Why am I paying this premium for something that is as weird as a shark bite in the middle of?

Frank: 46:13

Illinois. Yeah, why would anyone pay a premium for death insurance? I mean they call it life insurance. Yeah, but you only get it if you die.

Jake: 46:23

Families. I think, well, I just.

Noah: 46:27

I paid for a life insurance policy on my dad myself personally for like 15 years because I knew my parents. I didn't know what my parents had going, but they're. It didn't seem secure. They were sort of fiscally irresponsible and so I knew someday one of them was going to pass away. And I didn't know what that would look like for either of them.

Noah: 47:00

It would be, better for my dad probably than it would be for my mom, but I didn't know my would look like for either of them. Yeah, it would be better for my dad probably than it would be my mom, but I didn't know. My dad passed away in September, right, and it's helped her immensely.

Frank: 47:12

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that it's not a good product or anything. I'm suggesting, as an individual it's a loss.

Noah: 47:20

It's a catastrophic loss that you can't recover from yeah, but you're doing it for other people yeah, right, of course yeah, and I also had a major claim on my auto insurance it in the last like four weeks, yeah which allowed me to purchase a new vehicle. I didn't buy either of those insurance policies out of fear. I bought them out of certainty. I knew my dad was gonna die someday yeah and I didn't know that I would get rear-ended and have a total loss on my car. But I know that there's a large likelihood of that happening sometime in my life over the course of 40, 50, 60 years yeah, hail too.

Jake: 48:08

Yeah, so what you're saying right now is actually really interesting, because there is a relationship between um, fear and wisdom, if I could call it that, and I think it's the very relationship that does keep people from asking these questions. My mom, I will say it, she doesn't even know this podcast exists struggles with very intense anxiety, and she projects some of the what I would call crazy, unrealistic fears onto her kids specifically and then kind of makes them reassure her that her worst fears are not reality. This is my experience with it, which is why I'm so aware of it. When I confront her and I say this is anxiety, this is not reality. If you don't hear back from me in two hours because I didn't text you back, it doesn't mean I was in a fatal car crash. It means I was busy. That's reality, right, and her response is always well, it's not anxiety, it's not fear, it's wisdom and that belief is.

Noah: 49:21

Has she been correct yet? Have you fatally? He will die he will, but has it happened yet?

Jake: 49:33

No, and her knowing about it also wouldn't make a difference. But my point is, though, that if we really break it down my point is, though, that if we really break it down, she actually believes that it is beneficial to be entertaining these ideas. She believes that in some way, she is protecting or being proactive about a worst case scenario and being essentially hypervigilant about it. I'm going to be prepared when it does happen, and I think that if we convince ourselves that, being prepared for the worst case scenario, we actually tell ourselves hey, you're doing a good thing. This is in some way like morally responsible for myself and those around me to be afraid of this, and so I don't stop and think about the actual cost of fear in my life. It's emotionally and energetically draining.

Noah: 50:28

Yeah, I don't relate much to fear personally. That's not to say I don't have fears. I'm sure I do. I don't dwell on them much, they don't control me much and I certainly don't act out of fear very often so what you said at the top of this podcast is true. I I don't know how much I have to say on yeah the subject uh, except for I see a lot of people do run out of, run on fear and it's exhausting to watch other people do that, mm-hmm.

Jake: 51:10

I think my closest connection to fear is in the form of anxiety. I don't know what the research has to say about the connection between the two, but anxiety being like this, you know, projection of a worst case scenario onto, usually a future state, I'm worried that it's all going to go wrong. I'm worried that something isn't going to pan out.

Noah: 51:32

What is the difference between fear and preparedness? You want to ask AI, I can. You want to ask you ai, I can, because I think they are, I think, the sort of catalyst for both of those things is the same or similar. Yeah, but they're different responses for sure well it.

Jake: 51:59

it's very interesting that this is, in a way, how acute trauma works. It's like I live my life believing that reality is a certain way and then something swoops in and changes that. Like, my house falls into a sinkhole and I go wait, there are things that I should have been afraid of, that I didn't know I should be afraid of, and then I start looking for all the other things that I didn't know I should be afraid of. And then I start looking for all the other things that I didn't know I should be afraid of, and if I'm not careful, that can be a rabbit hole.

Noah: 52:28

well, this reminds me of the conversation we had last week about teaching thatcher about emotions. Like a kid doesn't know what he or she should be afraid of unless you teach it yeah, he or she, unless you teach him or her to be afraid of it. They or them, they or them. Yeah, I don't know. That human being doesn't know if they should be afraid, unless you teach them. I don't know, I'm lost.

Jake: 53:09

It's the unknown third person singular, We've recently adopted they or them as perfectly acceptable. It used to be in English that we would default to the masculine pronoun, that we would default to the masculine pronoun, but over the last few years we've said hey, actually it's okay for the unknown third person.

Frank: 53:29

What about the other ones? What's?

Jake: 53:31

that Zay and Zim. They tried that out, but the most people kind of rejected it. They said, no, this is kind of dumb.

Frank: 53:42

So they and them is inclusive.

Jake: 53:48

I believe, so I'd have to look it up. I mean, those things were changing. You're learning.

Noah: 53:54

Castilian Spanish.

Jake: 53:57

I did wish people a happy thinko de mayo nice.

Frank: 54:06

Uh, fear is an emotional response. Preparedness is a state of readiness. Fear involves feelings of anxiety or dread in response to a perceived threat. Huh, okay fear can be paralyzing and lead to panic, which jake described earlier, if excessive when prepare, while preparedness enables people to take constructive action in the face of threats.

Noah: 54:30

Did the AI say which Jake described earlier?

Frank: 54:34

Of course, is it listening, that's so crazy. Some fears may have an evolutionary basis, due to biological preparedness to quickly learn to fear threats like snakes or heights.

Noah: 54:47

See, I wonder, well, okay, to fear threats like snakes or heights? See, I wonder, well, okay, there is definitely a fear that people have of different critters or reptiles or whatever. But I wonder, going back to sort of where that began with our ancestors, was that a real, was it fear or was that wisdom, like I need to be afraid of this tiger because it is going to try to kill me? Is that true fear or is that instinct? And what's the difference there?

Jake: 55:26

Yeah, I mean, I think you, there's a certain form of intelligence, right, intelligence is acknowledging cause and effect and its true base, like how quickly can I acknowledge that when a happens, b follows? And I think that what you're saying is, yeah, there is an aspect of like reality is that thing wants to eat me and I will die. It's not good for me to be close to it, and so that's like the intelligence Fear though I think would be there's no lion around, but I'm afraid that a lion is going to be around soon, you know, and it's like I could be prepared. Okay, I've got my spear with me. That makes me a little bit less afraid, makes me maybe think about the potential for some danger to come a little bit less, because I'm ready when it does. But yeah, there are different components here, for sure.

Noah: 56:28

Yeah, like there's a difference between that lion's coming after me. Um, but yeah, there are. There are different components here, for sure. Yeah, like there's the there's a difference between that lion's coming after me and I know I need to run and what if? Yes, what if a lion came?

Frank: 56:42

Yeah, I mean, I think fear is the action signal to triage the problem. And I think a lot of people I feel like I've seen a lot of people over my life not triage. They just start responding before they realize what the problem is or understand it. So if the fear is off in the future, like my dad may die, you could triage and say Triage being prioritize.

Jake: 57:11

what needs to happen?

Frank: 57:12

Yeah, just look at what all could I do about this. Is there anything I could do about this? If so, what makes the most sense? Let me do that. That seems to get rid of fear. At least it lets you handle it completely. At least it lets you handle it completely. But in that case I think the result of that triage process is insurance. That's one of man's creations for handling far-off fear. There's nothing I can do to prevent my house from collapsing into a mine, but I can make sure that we get a new house by outsourcing it If we survive the collapse.

Frank: 57:56

Right, by outsourcing it to these people who will pay for a new house. We just have to pay them a small fee today, yeah, and every month from now until then, yeah, yeah, and I think it's. I mean, I don't know. Anxiety changed for me when I realized it was just an action signal to make a list of the things I could do about this and then do them. Yeah, yeah, and sometimes the list is overwhelming, so it's important to just spend a little bit of time organizing it and triaging it and then only do the first one, yeah, until that one's done. Yeah.

Frank: 58:41

But anxiety usually just feels like there's no, I don't know what to do. It just seems like this is going to happen to me. Right, right, right. And so if you can find something to do or just acknowledge there is nothing to do, yeah. But if you've been, if you've been unexpectedly rear ended on the interstate, then in those moments it's like what even you know? Like it just happened and it feels like it might happen again. And so when you have that sort of recent trauma, especially if it's unprocessed or something you don't even get to triage, you're just like is it happening? That's like panic state and that's is it happening?

Jake: 59:32

that's like panic state and that's yeah, I think it's when you sort of identify that worst case scenario state as always present, and it's like that's where the hyper vigilance comes in. I'm vigilant about things that don't make sense to be vigilant about. In this moment I'm not even driving, I'm in the middle of a field and I'm scared of getting hit and rear-ended, like that doesn't compute, but we can certainly do that. I mean, it sounds like a crazy thing to say, but if we don't regulate that nervous system by triaging in some way and tell ourselves like hey, that thing that you're afraid of, it's not happening right now.

Frank: 1:00:13

Yeah.

Jake: 1:00:13

And you can prepare for it if it does.

Frank: 1:00:16

I think there are times I mean, there's a very real phenomenon in humans where they couldn't get out of the part of the brain that is in fire alarm mode and into triage. Yeah, depending on that, I mean really depending on their beliefs about the trauma that they experienced usually, but that's not how it's commonly said. It's like how violent it was or how fear-inducing it was or whatever, um, which is all that's all true and real, but it's really just what they believe about it. It's going to happen again.

Jake: 1:00:55

Right or whatever, right? Well, yeah, I don't know how related this is, but, um, renee Brown, uh, in Atlas of the heart, describes a distinction between hopelessness and despair. Like hopelessness and despair Like hopelessness is a momentary state where I can't quite find the hope or the pathway out in this moment. It may happen, but right now I can't find it.

Jake: 1:01:20

Despair is, there is systemic oppression in some way.

Jake: 1:01:26

I am in a state in which, no matter what I do or how hard I try, there is at least an equal and opposite force, if not a greater opposite force, that is going to defeat those attempts every single time, and that, yeah, despair is a tough place, I think you know. I don't even want to try to give an example of how to deal with despair, but I think to acknowledge that most of the situations we find ourselves in are not despair, to say you may be feeling like a sense of hopelessness and you can't find the way out, that doesn't mean there isn't one Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. And to say, okay, I don't know it right now, but also, I'm alive and well right now and if I make it to tomorrow, maybe that light at the end of the tunnel is going to pop up and I can find it yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think there's value in doing sort of multiple things in your life so that patients can be on the list.

Frank: 1:02:34

Yeah, because sometimes it does feel hopeless Like this project is the. The top thing on the list is execute patients. Yeah, and so that what?

Jake: 1:02:51

is that like Dr death's, yeah private list?

Frank: 1:02:59

yes, uh execute on patients yeah which just means figure out something to do in the meantime, or whatever. That's what Alex Ramos, he would say.

Jake: 1:03:11

Yeah, that's a really great point though, right, because it's like it's it's the whole backwards law situation. Um, it requires you to be focused on one thing. If I'm focused on, I need to get rich and then I'll get happy. Um, I am, like I said before, you know, creating a context where all I'm focused on is what I don't have, and if you have multiple things going on at the same time, like you said, it's like, okay, I'm afraid of this thing happening in one of six primarily salient operations in my life right now. Yeah, one of six.

Jake: 1:03:49

I've got the other stuff. The other stuff is going to get me through today, it's going to keep me focused and I'll come back to that other one and I'll I'll reassess in a week when are we at, you know. But yeah, if that's all you got, oh you're going to go to despair real quick, right.

Noah: 1:04:06

Yeah, we were talking about fear.

Jake: 1:04:20

What's your go-to these days when you're afraid? It's really approaching reality on its own terms. I think that peace is a cultivar of a life that is sort of examined. My fears are not reality in this moment. So I'll look at this moment. I'll say, okay, what's my fear?

Jake: 1:04:46

My fear is I'm not going to be able to be smart enough to accomplish this task at work, right, okay, what does that have anything to do with where I'm at right now? Right now, I'm at a table drinking some tea, hanging out with my friends. It's not too hot, it's not too cold, I'm not hungry. That fear has nothing to do with this present moment, right now. And so I bring my nervous system and my thought processes back into this moment and I say, okay, I've done everything on the list, I've triaged, there's nothing for me to do in this moment. Is worrying, helping me is? Is it beneficial at all in this moment? No, it's draining me of my energy and actually making me less prepared to deal with it when the need arises. So the best thing for me to do logically defeating it with logic in some way is to not think about it.

Frank: 1:05:49

Yeah, the thing this reminds me of is, um, hallucinated snakes. Have I ever told you guys about this? So I think it's in um Kamal Ravikant's book, which is about loving yourself. But it's a story of a guy who was like insane. He was in a mental institution and he had like severe hallucinations of snakes. Okay, so then this neuro-linguistic programming guy finds out about him. He's like I think I can help him. And so he goes to a reptile store and they have a barrel of rubber snakes, yeah, and I think they bring the whole barrel of rubber snakes and three live real snakes and put them in his room in some way that the snakes won't hurt him. But they're all over there for real.

Frank: 1:06:58

Now, um, and the guy is screaming bloody murder and they like lock him in there for a half hour. He doesn't stop screaming. And then the NLP doctor guy walks in and he's like I know, I know snakes, right, they're everywhere. Tell me what does he say? Something like tell me which ones are the hallucinated snakes and I'll get the other ones out of here. And he's like that one's real, those are all rubber and the hallucinated ones are transparent. And he's like okay, so you know which ones are the hallucinated ones that should be able to guide you through the rest of your life, and the dude recovers, continues to see them sometimes, but now, no, he can recognize the hallucinated snakes.

Frank: 1:07:51

Yeah, and I think we have patterns like that, even if we're not psychopaths or whatever. A hundred percent. Yeah, that are like. Whatever it is, that people hate me or something. Yeah, what's the? This looks a lot like that transparent snake from the other day. That was the person I thought hated me. Yeah, what's the? This looks a lot like that transparent snake from the other day. That was the person I thought hated me or whatever.

Jake: 1:08:14

Yeah, and I mean just to throw this out there, like we've talked about a lot of physical danger things, but there are so many things I mean. Your fear can be uh, this person doesn't like me, or my spouse is going to cheat on me, or my boss doesn't think that I'm smart enough, or I mean, like, these things are hallucinated snakes. They are based in I don't know the makeup of who you are. Your fears are going to be different than everybody else's. They're always going to pop up. They're going to pop up again when you're 60 years old, even if you've been doing this work forever. It's not about getting them to stop. It's about acknowledging the ones that are real, present, useful to pay attention to the real snakes against the hallucinated ones. Yeah, I like that.

Frank: 1:09:05

Yep, I use that idea a lot. Yeah, I'm afraid really yeah, I mean, I don't think of them as snakes, but I'm like, is there a? It's the same, it's the same idea as how old do I feel right now? Or is this the first time I felt like this? Or is this the first time I've seen this snake, this hallucinated snake, am I?

Jake: 1:09:28

here at all or am've seen this snake, this hallucinated snake? Am I here at all or am I somewhere?

Frank: 1:09:31

else entirely. Does this hallucinated snake? Is it transparent? Does it look anything like my dad beating me? Yeah, actually, is someone beating me right now? Yeah, mm-mm. No, they're not, so this one's on me.

Jake: 1:09:49

I love it. There you go.

Frank: 1:09:54

Anyways, I think that was better than saying despair or whatever.

Jake: 1:09:57

I agree. I agree. Yeah, I like that a lot and the snakes thing is it's a great picture. That's a good book.

Frank: 1:10:14

What's it called love something. Love yourself. Come on, ravikant, love yourself like your life depends on it. Cool that's awesome yep, well, thanks, tuppy nation, tuppa nation, thanks, it's like the mosey nation of tuppies. I gotcha tuppa nation tuppa nation marvel I do think we need to get the tuppa nation energy going. Sometimes, like what's up, tuppa nation feels a little performative.

Jake: 1:10:49

It's all performative.

Frank: 1:10:51

I agree, I agree, um. Does this podcast over? Yeah, I think so.