Stories that Shape Us: Food, Culture, and Consciousness

Jake: 0:45

Frank, how was your trip to?

Frank: 0:46

Denver. It was good. Thank you for asking.

Jake: 0:50

What about? It was good.

Frank: 0:54

The mountains. Exploring Denver. Every time I've ever been in Denver, I've had a million things to do. This time I had none, so I went and explored a lot of places.

Noah: 1:11

Did you see?

Frank: 1:11

lions or bears? No, but I saw signs for lions and bears, yeah, Did I have a?

Jake: 1:18

what Did you have a favorite? A highlight?

Frank: 1:23

Yeah, it's probably hiking in the mountains, I think. I was really expecting a burrito answer. There was a good burrito there. Yeah, the chupacabra yeah the goat sucker um. I don't really identify with it as that what do you identify with? It with, as I identify with it as um a burrito name okay, okay that's what they mean every time they say chupacabra they're talking about a burrito.

Jake: 2:00

Oh, the chupacabra is coming, it is scared.

Noah: 2:04

In spanish it's a synonym for burrito. It sort of is it could be what happened to my goat. Now heonym for burrito.

Frank: 2:07

It sort of is it could be what happened to my goat. Now he's a burrito.

Jake: 2:16

Not here anymore. I ate a lot of goat in Kenya. I'm boozy.

Frank: 2:21

Really sucked it down, goat burritos. Oh, no we didn't go to the trouble of burrito-izing it.

Noah: 2:31

It's not really any trouble, is it? You could have brought the burrito to the African people.

Jake: 2:35

Yeah, isn't it interesting how many foods are basically tacos or burritos Most of them, most of them. Sandwiches, gyros, tacos, hot dogs on a bun.

Noah: 2:47

We actually just really like food vehicles Absolutely. We like bread and tortillas and anything else. You can put other food on.

Jake: 2:59

Chapatis.

Noah: 3:02

Wonton wrappers.

Jake: 3:04

Yeah, lettuce, there you go, lettuce boats.

Frank: 3:10

I don't think that's like quite as popular as some of the others that are mentioned. I'd agree that's what was last?

Noah: 3:17

nature but if you think about a salad lettuce really is just there so you can put cheese and croutons and onions and feel good about the other stuff, yeah, yeah I Protein, if you like protein.

Frank: 3:31

Some people just eat lettuce.

Jake: 3:34

I'm sure that's true. I do agree. I'm also sure it's true.

Frank: 3:40

Great.

Noah: 3:45

Well, that was it for the food vehicle section. Yeah, in Kenya they did have they did have chapati.

Jake: 3:51

It's like pita bread, you know Chapati, chapati.

Noah: 3:57

What did you get on your chapati burrito in Kenya?

Jake: 4:01

You know, you could get it with goat, you could get it with motombo, which was Did you always get the extra guac?

Frank: 4:14

Did they charge extra for guac there.

Jake: 4:16

I can't answer that question in a way that makes sense. They had avocados there, for sure.

Frank: 4:24

Yeah, does Chipotle even tell you how much guac is anymore?

Jake: 4:31

They shouldn't. If they did, no one would get it.

Frank: 4:35

I remember when it was 50 cents, yeah, and then, like guac's, 50 cents extra, and then it was a little more and a little more. I think they just say it's extra now.

Jake: 4:44

Yeah, that's extra. You want that? That's how I hear it. They don't advertise it, though they do always ask if you want queso. You want queso? Yeah, but you didn't answer my question. Do you want queso?

Noah: 5:00

Yeah, I recently had a birthday and the Chipotle birthday gift is the worst one because it's free guac, nobody wants that. Give me something.

Frank: 5:13

I want, yeah, what chick-fil-a give you?

Noah: 5:16

I don't go there what did they want to give you? I don't go there, so I don't think they have my info they give you a sandwich?

Frank: 5:24

I think no, they give you your choice of chicken entree. Oh nice.

Noah: 5:31

Yeah, they don't have my info.

Frank: 5:38

I'm going to try to keep it that way. Yeah, Sometimes I've looked at their nutrition information and I don't know Any shred of goodness they had is all gone for sure there was a time they had like chicken with wheat flour on it that was dipped in some kind of nice oil or something. That's all gone.

Jake: 5:59

their ingredients have like 200 items in them oh, really yeah that sucks, damn it.

Frank: 6:07

Peanut oil filet. It was peanut oil, it was peanut oil oh, okay they don't use that anymore. I don't think more expensive. Gotta cut costs it is more expensive. They recently cut chicken costs as well. What are they serving now instead?

Jake: 6:25

chicken with antibiotics, gotcha they had to change all their bags.

Frank: 6:32

I mean, I think they handed them out and then got new ones. I don't think they changed them.

Jake: 6:38

We can't do the chicken thing until we get through our current batch of bags and cups and napkins.

Frank: 6:45

Yeah, they changed it in a weird way too.

Jake: 6:50

Tell me about it. I don't know why you can't just tease this.

Noah: 6:57

This has been a really, really great intro to an episode that I believe we're going to have.

Frank: 7:04

So their website has a page called Our Chicken Commitment and it says to maintain supply of the high quality chicken you expect from us, chick-fil-a will shift from no antibiotics ever nae to no antibiotics important to human medicine naihm, starting in the spring of 2024.

Jake: 7:27

Wow, okay, what is Is the?

Noah: 7:33

The problem with antibiotics.

Jake: 7:36

Is that the chickens?

Noah: 7:36

are stealing them. All the chickens are stealing it. That's the problem. I didn't realize this.

Jake: 7:41

There's an antibiotic shortage and they're giving it to the chickens.

Noah: 7:46

I had no idea. That's why I should be outraged about antibiotics fed chicken. I think it's a psyop, now that I know the chickens are stealing the antibiotics from the kids that need it now. I'm outraged.

Jake: 8:05

These kids out here dying.

Noah: 8:08

Also, we can eat chickens. I'm really glad that I already didn't eat Chick-fil-A.

Frank: 8:15

Yeah, it's been getting steadily worse, while maintaining its appearance as the prime chicken.

Noah: 8:23

I'd like to point out that Chick-fil-A is not a sponsor of this podcast.

Jake: 8:29

This is Chipotle, man, right, what Chipotle.

Frank: 8:34

Chipotle is not what we're talking about. And also not a sponsor of the podcast.

Jake: 8:39

I thought we were still talking about Chipotle this whole time.

Noah: 8:42

What you know he's been saying, chick-fil-a.

Frank: 8:45

You think Chipotle fries their chicken in peanut oil? I didn't know what they were doing.

Noah: 8:50

Do they fry their chicken ever? Have you ever had fried?

Jake: 8:52

chicken at Chipotle. All I'm saying is Chipotle used to be a bastion of health.

Frank: 8:58

Oh, yeah, sure, and they're slowly. This is yeah. They were closer to a bastion of actual health. Chick-fil-a appeared to be a bastion of healthy fast food.

Noah: 9:10

Do you guys want to start a restaurant chain with me called Chipotle?

Frank: 9:15

No, but I've heard that everything is merging. I also do.

Noah: 9:20

That's good. I didn't want to anyway.

Frank: 9:23

I in fact heard on a podcast the other day that podcasts talk about food. They're going to be. There's going to be a hopplebees other day that Podcasts talk about food.

Jake: 9:33

There's gonna be, I hopple bees, I hopple bees. You said, take it for a spin.

Noah: 9:45

I hopple. You made that up. I have both you made that up.

Jake: 9:58

I did not make it up.

Noah: 10:01

Okay, man, I'm trying to think of other good mergers Hard Bees.

Jake: 10:16

You know, what I've been thinking about recently is identity. In what way I've been thinking about identity in terms of well, actually so I was reading the bible and I tried to quote a scripture yesterday jeremiah how did it go?

Frank: 10:26

11. I didn't know what it was anymore. I went into it with the full expectation that it was there, though, like full confidence.

Jake: 10:35

I'm about to say this.

Noah: 10:36

The witnesses of Jehovah stopped by my house the other day.

Jake: 10:39

Oh, correct, yeah, no. So I was reading the Bible and this was a written version of an oral tradition that was handed down and essentially what was going on was like this is what happened to our fathers. This is where we were. This land was promised to us, but it was stolen from us. We, you know, lived in squalor, in slavery, for this period of time, and now our identity is in contrast to that.

Jake: 11:11

We are coming out of that slavery and it's just such an interesting thing, because either you feel as though the world around you is like trying to get you down and you are sort of overcoming that to some degree that's like an identity sort of thing or you are feeling as though you're succeeding. I guess you don't have the oppression against you. I have some identity based on the town that I grew up in and maybe the impoverished state that we were in or whatever, and I'm coming up out of that. But what happens if I get rid of that story? What happens if I take the history completely away? What's left? Where does the identity come in, and to what degree can we choose how we identify ourselves?

Frank: 12:11

All degree, I think, say that again, I think you can totally choose.

Jake: 12:15

Yeah.

Frank: 12:18

You can remove any story you want and replace it. You just have to repeat it enough so that it becomes your new story.

Jake: 12:26

Do you have experience with that? Yeah, I suppose. So. Yeah, you said it very confidently. I definitely believe that.

Frank: 12:35

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've seen people do it and I feel like I've done it on some level in parts of my life, so much so that I do feel confident about it. Yeah. I think you can change your identity or certainly what you choose to identify, so much so that I do feel confident about it. Yeah, I think you can change your identity, or?

Frank: 12:54

certainly what you choose to identify with so much so that it becomes your new identity. I really think, if you don't repeat the thoughts anymore, they cease to exist. Almost every reference in your mind is from something just before that. There was a reference to something just before that, and only the ideas you keep repeating are the ones that seem to be salient.

Jake: 13:20

Well, and that was sort of my point from a cultural aspect, you know, this was passed down. It was repeated generation after generation in an oral tradition and then eventually written down to tell these people hey, don't forget who you are, don't forget where we've come from. This is our identity, and you're exactly right, we do that for ourselves as well.

Jake: 13:55

Well, and I think it's weird, because the nature of the ego is that it is composed of stories. It is a series of stories that build upon each other like bricks in a foundation, and when you start pulling them away, you either start to disappear a little bit which is why I think we're so fearful of taking away some of the stories that actually hinder us and hurt us we start to feel ourselves dissolving and we don't know what to replace those bricks with. So I think it is essential, if you start to look back and say, oh, that belief is no longer serving me, or that story is no longer the one I want to be living, you have to be ready to replace it with something else. This is what I've experienced in my own life. Anyway, I kind of just started pulling apart all the pieces that didn't make sense anymore and I was kind of just left there with nothing, just sitting and being like okay, well, nothing matters.

Jake: 14:56

That was the feeling that was the experience. And so it's like okay, well, if nothing has meaning intrinsically, then it only has the meaning that I imbue it with. So what do I want my story to be? Who do I want to be?

Frank: 15:10

Sure, yeah. So what do I want my story to be? Who do I want to be? Sure? Yeah, that feels like a lot of emptiness to many people, I think, when they realize it too. Yeah, because you can make your story anything you want and you're just going to die. So what difference does it make which one you pick? Right, you know, and I think that's why a lot of people end up in these things that are like I'm going to make the world a better place for us in the future, or I'm going to do this, pass down this tradition thing or something. It's like idea that, while I might go away this, like idea that, while I might go away, the species should continue and I should do the best thing that causes the least amount of suffering for whatever.

Noah: 15:57

Sometimes that's identity based, though, because it's. They want a legacy, they want to be remembered.

Frank: 16:03

Yeah, that's true.

Noah: 16:06

Both of those things are weird to me.

Frank: 16:08

Yeah, they won't be remembered. I mean, almost no one's remembered and yeah, for sure, that's why it's weird.

Jake: 16:14

It is weird, but I mean I think that's the place that you get to when you strip it all down and you go hold up Like I am going to die. All none of this actually does have meaning. So I have to create something, and the only place where meaning exists is here. So I guess I have to leave something that's going to last, and that's what these cultural identities are as well. I mean at this point, so many of them are thousands of years old, if not tens of thousands. For some. They have little artifacts of of something from a very long time ago and and we're so afraid I mean, you see it in sort of the hatred and fear of merging national lines. Let's put a wall at our Southern border. Oh, the the people are coming in and this doesn't even look like our country anymore.

Jake: 17:10

We're so afraid of the merging identities and I think it's like that fingernail grip on the edge of I'm just trying to maintain who I thought I was at that cultural level. I don't know. I see it in the macro and I see it in the micro. I think it's because of the work that I'm doing with myself to say every ending is a new beginning that the flower that blooms and becomes something new has to have given up on being the seed and it has to have given up on being the bud and the bulb and it has to have stopped being those things in order to become something new and it's like there is something in the future. That's sort of the micro is like how we do that personally and to do that on the macro, at the cultural level. We end up with this sort of war, this tug of war that says like I want things to progress, well, I want to conserve. It says like I want things to progress, I want to conserve.

Frank: 18:42

And I see both sides of it for sure. Yeah, I have a lot of concepts about this, but I don't have language for them all. I don't think, but I feel like something close to 100% of suffering is caused by our thoughts. Almost all war.

Jake: 19:00

I think it's unmet expectation. Right, the thought is the expectation. The suffering is the chasm between where we are and what we wanted.

Frank: 19:11

Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine a scenario in which you would resort to violence if you thought it was okay how it is. So it's just that you think it's not every time that there's ever violence.

Jake: 19:30

Sure.

Frank: 19:30

Sort of like psychopaths or something that aren't thinking at all, you know, or demon possessions, if that's a thing.

Jake: 19:39

Sure.

Frank: 19:41

Must kill. Yeah, terminators or whatever, yeah, but yeah, I think it's just the way we're thinking about things that causes all the suffering so what's the fix?

Jake: 19:56

what's the solution?

Frank: 19:57

to that. The solution is in that question. Why would you ever ask it? Do you know what I mean?

Jake: 20:13

Sure.

Frank: 20:16

The solution is the problem Feeling like there needs to be something, yeah, other than what already is.

Jake: 20:24

Yeah, that's one of the hardest things to grasp. I think when you start to accept reality as it is, you start to grapple with some of the moral and ethical implications of that.

Jake: 20:38

You're like, okay, well, this is one of our keywords here, but if everything is just happening and nothing actually does have a moral right or wrong, then if we see the next Hitler rise up, do we just let it occur and it's like, there it is. And it's like, okay, well, yes, but another thing that is happening is that there is a stirring inside of people that says that something is wrong, like that does exist, and that desire to create some sort of justice also is happening. So we're watching it all play out.

Frank: 21:28

Yeah, if you remove the thoughts, I don't think any of it happens. How do you become Hitler? I'm asking you as the authority on this Sure you.

Jake: 21:55

I'm asking you as the authority on, sure you're?

Frank: 21:58

you're saying like on a broad scale, the the question has to be erased from collective consciousness entirely. Yeah, I think if everyone is is seeking to love one another and to find flourishing for all, or something like this, then I don't, you can't really get into a thought loop.

Jake: 22:21

That's like I must kill all of this type of people, or something well, I think, yeah, I mean, I don't think you're wrong, I think it's like you said, it's hard to have the language for that type of thing, but for me, if I go back to the concept of identity, replacing the old identity with a new one is something I said is essential, and I think that the universal identity, or the global identity if we don't want to take the huge leap, the global identity is essential. I mean, one of the big things that Carl Sagan advocated for back in the 60s was hey, when you're up on the moon, turn the camera back on the earth. And we want to get a picture of what this thing looks like, because, all of a sudden, there are no borders between the U? S and Mexico, or Russia and China or anything like that. It is, there is one border and and we're all on this planet together.

Jake: 23:19

And that sort of universal identity allows us to say, okay, cool, we can keep our history. We can say this is who you were and this is what you were. Um, but you are that and you are something else. If you want to keep your history, that's cool, because it tells us all information about how we got to where we are. But you're not different than me, you're not separate from me.

Frank: 23:52

We are all playing out this drama on the same stage. Yeah, I think thoughts are a lot like social media apps or something, and what I mean in that is that I think the best place for social media apps is deleted. But if you open them, you're likely to go into the same old loops and just scroll through there and have the same thoughts again and feel the same way. And when someone makes you angry, you're likely to go oh, you know, they're just like my dad or they're just like my. You know whatever most recent experience that you want to project onto this new situation, and all you can do in there is comment or like or like. Well, there's nothing, there's no flourishing. It doesn't feel like it's.

Jake: 24:41

Yeah, but map that out for me.

Frank: 24:43

What does a?

Jake: 24:43

life without thoughts look like.

Frank: 24:47

Just presence.

Jake: 24:49

Okay.

Frank: 24:52

I mean, you can't get rid of thoughts, but you can get rid of identity with them. Sure, I think the likelihood of me getting angry while we're having this podcast is just exceptionally low. I'm not open to it. If it came in, I wouldn't really identify with it, so I think that's a nicer experience that's available to anyone who wants it.

Jake: 25:22

Sure, I agree. I mean, meditation is one of the biggest movers I've experienced in my life. When I implemented that, I was able to watch the thoughts and once you realize you are not them, all of a sudden you have this choice in front of you which is oh, I like that one, I don't like that one. Whatever, I think you're going to identify with a thought, no matter what. I think that even the concept that you can or cannot identify with thoughts is an identity itself. It is a. It's a concept that you are engaging with. If you take away all identity, everything goes black, Um, even even the present moment. You are a perspective that is watching the universe play itself out and that requires an identity of some kind.

Frank: 26:32

Have you ever experienced a moment where you didn't seem to exist and everything wasn't gone black?

Jake: 26:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Frank: 26:42

I think it's possible to experience. It's something like what is the experience of being water in a river? You can strongly identify with the water and everybody knows what it is. You can tell what it feels like and stuff. But you can't quite know what it feels like to be water in a river. Sure, sure, and I don't think it's true to assume that it feels like darkness.

Jake: 27:17

I guess this is my point, though, is that identifying with a thought is the experience of being human. So much of the time, and when you are doing it, you are watching the universe happen. You may not be looking at it from the perspective of the witness, you may just actually be identified, which is what water is doing when it's being water. That is part of the human experience.

Frank: 27:51

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I've had thoughts where they took over me you know, they became the focus and the center of who I am. Um, I'm more like, and those thoughts still occur sometimes, but I'm much more likely to laugh at them, like they're just absurd sometimes or whatever. That doesn't feel like identification with the thought to me. It doesn't make, it doesn't become ego or something it's just a thought. Do you know what I'm saying?

Noah: 28:40

oh sure.

Jake: 28:41

But where are you right here in this second Like, when you're describing that you're identified with the experience of having the conversation, like there is a way that you can zoom out from that and you can be like, oh, look at that guy having that conversation, but you're also just having it. Like. My point is that, whether you are currently aware of what's happening or you are not in that state of mindful awareness, you are being water, because sometimes water is trickling over a rock and sometimes it's frozen, and sometimes it's frozen, frozen, and sometimes it's whatever, right, um sure, whatever it is, it's still water, being water. And whatever you are and whatever you're thinking, whatever you're feeling, and however you're identified, you're still being human. So I guess my point is, yeah, it's so meta that our current state of awareness is a product of the shape of this universe, the shape of our minds, the shape of our language, the shape of everything in every way, and that if we changed even one little piece of it, the thing that we call awareness would look different, the thing that we call a thought would look different.

Jake: 30:11

And even saying like all that goes away if thoughts go away, way, uh, is some sort of judgment about even the value of suffering, like we were even saying, like suffering would go away. Well, there's, there's some sort of connotation there. The suffering is bad, um, when in reality it's just humans being, otherwise it wouldn't be there. Humans have egos, like flowers have bulbs and petals, like water turns to ice or gas yeah, I mean, I think pain has to be there, but I don't know about suffering.

Frank: 31:05

That seems totally optional.

Jake: 31:07

I agree that it's optional.

Frank: 31:12

The thoughts I'm talking about, though, are not just the idea of ideas going by or something. The ones that seem especially destructive are the ones that people identify with. They become who they are or something. They become identity even in the moment, or something.

Jake: 31:35

Yeah.

Frank: 31:36

Especially this is just the way like myelin and neurons work is that we repeat these over and over and over throughout our life, so much so that they become our default state, our default mode. Yeah, that is the problem.

Jake: 31:58

What's the difference? What are the different types of thoughts? If you could classify them, the different types?

Frank: 32:06

Yeah.

Jake: 32:08

You're distinguishing somehow.

Frank: 32:13

Yeah, I mean I don't. I think there are like super creative ones. There's just together there's sort of juxtaposition of ideas like humor, stuff like that, I don't know. I mean, I think the thoughts I'm talking about are actually so constrained that they're not really like any other thoughts. They're just repeating old tapes or something.

Jake: 32:48

Sure.

Frank: 32:50

I mean, and if you can recognize them as that, like that's a real distinguishing thing about them is that it doesn't feel like any new experience. It might feel like your favorite experience or something. You might like it because it feels homey or something, but there's a sort of uncertainty in this moment while we make this podcast. Like will it become something? What are we going to talk about? What is Jake talking about? What the yeah, what is I Applebee's going to even serve? Yeah, Pancake-wrapped hot dogs. Baby back pancakes. It's Chili's. How do you know? Chili's wasn't a part of the merge, man.

Jake: 33:39

It might be in there.

Frank: 33:40

It does have an ease in it um, that sort of stuff is, is the stuff of experience. That's like presence when that's missing.

Jake: 33:53

You're just playing an old loop yeah, I mean, I think it is what I would call story. I would say a story is a complex of thoughts. It is context. Yeah, I have meaning. That meaning can be positive or negative. It can tell me who I am or who I've been, or who I am compared to who I should be, or any of this. And within these stories comes morality and judgment and that sort of stuff.

Frank: 34:32

You're talking about belief bundles. Belief bundles is what I'm talking about.

Jake: 34:35

Yeah and um is what I'm talking about. Yeah and yeah. It's very easy to fall into a place where I am judging myself because of those stories, and certainly judging everybody else around me, and that judgment is what takes me out of the present. I'm now structuring the world the way that I wish it to be, because it's the only way that makes sense, as opposed to just experiencing it as it flows out. There's a saying by the Buddha that I saw recently that I really liked, and it was I am not what you think I am. You are what you think I am. You are what you think I am, and it's just like, yeah, hey, if that idea is in your head, it didn't come from the outside, it came from the inside. Whatever, the worst thing that I think you might be intending toward me is actually the worst thing that I could ever intend toward someone else, and I'm angry about it because I'm angry that it exists inside of me. I never allow myself to do that.

Noah: 35:47

Why are?

Jake: 35:47

they allowing themselves to do that. So yeah, these complex stories are confusing because they're so easy to identify with, especially the more we repeat them. Infusing because they're so easy to identify with, especially the more we repeat them. So what is an indicator that I'm repeating?

Frank: 36:11

an old story. It feels like nothing. It feels like home. I'm not uncomfortable. Yeah, I think it feels like home. Byron Katie seems to always start with the judgment when helping people out of this type of thinking. Maybe it usually feels like a judgment.

Jake: 36:26

Okay, yeah, toward myself or someone else.

Frank: 36:29

Yeah, I think she always starts with others, because the ego is real tricky with yourself.

Jake: 36:36

And you don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

Frank: 36:36

real tricky with yourself and you don't even know what you're talking about anymore. But usually like uh, I am angry with Paul because this okay. And then she like takes you through some questions and then turns them around and, um, you find out that you're, you know, you're actually angry with yourself because of the same thing, or whatever.

Jake: 36:57

Sure.

Frank: 36:58

It's often just your own creation that got you feeling, so whatever.

Jake: 37:05

Yeah, I think, I think that's a good one, maybe if I start to realize there's a judgment. Another one for me is when I feel like there is a a lot of velocity to my emotion.

Frank: 37:19

Definitely, yeah, yeah.

Jake: 37:21

If I'm going in one direction like really hard, I'm probably believing something extremely.

Frank: 37:31

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think that Byron Katie worksheet Judge your Neighbor worksheet thing is if you feel any sense of like emotions, have me right now. If you do all the questions on there and do all the turnarounds, the, the self-inquiry is like limitless on that and you will get to the thing. I've done it enough times that I'm like. It's just the thing I usually send people to if they're like they don't. They feel uncontrollable emotion or something.

Jake: 38:05

Yeah.

Frank: 38:06

It will get at the real issue, which is very seldom the post-it note you're putting on someone. Yeah, this frigging guy hates me. Is it also true that you hate you? Is there a chance that that might be involved here?

Jake: 38:24

Yeah, yeah Right, it could be both Sure, but it's definitely the first one. Yeah, yeah.

Frank: 38:36

Yeah, velocity is good, I think yeah. Yeah, I don't mean all thoughts are bad or identity is bad or even any of this stuff is bad, but the ones that aren't serving us certainly might want to just put in the considerations to drop. Yeah.

Jake: 38:53

There's a real terror to that in my experience. That in my experience, like when I am choosing to take a step away from the person I have been, it's a real existential terror. It feels to me like the jews deciding hey, we're gonna stop telling the story of where we've been for the last 10,000 years. You're, you're walking away from the history of who you've been. You're, you're killing an identity, you're dying in a way, and you're saying it's lost to time. Not even the people around me will know that person anymore and I'm just choosing to step into someone else. And it's scary, like I really feel that and something that I do when I've acknowledged something that is no longer serving me is, it's almost ceremonial. It's like a cord cutting sort of experience where I'm like, okay, hey, you have served me well, you got me to where I am, thank you for that, but I don't need you anymore. You're a dead weight that's pulling me under and I'm trying to reach the surface. So goodbye, old friend.

Frank: 40:13

Yeah. How can you be certain that you're right to do that? What do you mean? How can you be certain that you're right?

Jake: 40:18

to do that.

Frank: 40:22

What do you mean? You develop this defense mechanism that keeps you safe on some level. That's why you built it, and now you're sure that it's dead weight. It's just pulling you under. But how do you become sure?

Jake: 40:38

That's a great question. Number one I don't think that there is an absolute to anything. I don't think that something is absolutely good or absolutely bad. It's probably is the average positive or is the average negative. And if it's negative more times than it's positive in the life that you're trying to build and you, you know, let's put a name on it. Let's say your defense mechanisms name is John.

Jake: 41:07

If I'm, if I have someone in my friend group who is like, hey, um, why'd we end up at the police station again? Uh, oh, it was John. We end up at the police station again? Oh, it was John. Hey, why did we get kicked out of that restaurant? Again, oh, it was John. You know, like, if the same person keeps being at fault every time, it's like hey, maybe I don't want to hang out with John anymore, okay, well, if, hey, I keep not going out into the world because I was assaulted, keeps being the thing that pops up. Yeah, all of a sudden it's like okay, I have a choice. I can keep being limited or I can say, hey, uh, I don't think that we're a good fit anymore. I don't think we're going to be friends.

Frank: 41:54

Yeah, I'm saying you do that. You're like I don't think that's right, so I'm going to put myself out there, I'm going to go out in the world again, and then you get assaulted.

Jake: 42:01

Sure sure.

Frank: 42:03

What do you do?

Jake: 42:05

Well, I think it's a remembering. You know, there is a dynamic called fading effect, bias, and it is the tendency of people to remember experiences as better than they were. It's adaptive in a lot of ways. It's why, you know, a woman who goes through the pain of childbirth is like I want to have another baby in a year or two later, um. But it can also, uh, be applied to things like drinking. Like, for me, if I thought of, um, drinking alcohol the way that I used to, and only thought of happy times, and like smiling and laughing around a fire that's what drinking is Well, I would be more likely to say, hey, let's go back to that.

Jake: 42:51

If I remembered the hangovers in the morning and the sleepless nights and stuff like that and remembered it in reality, I'd be like, hey, it's always a trade-off. I think it's the same with our defense mechanisms. If I go out into the world and get hurt again, I might resort back to that comfort mechanism because I think, oh, it's going to make everything better. I have to remember the whole story, not just the parts that helped me, but the parts that limited me as well.

Frank: 43:24

Yeah.

Jake: 43:25

And it's just a constant choice.

Frank: 43:26

But what if you did the ribbon cutting or whatever?

Jake: 43:29

Mm-hmm.

Frank: 43:30

Did you say ribbon cutting?

Jake: 43:31

I called it a cord cutting.

Frank: 43:33

Cord Cord.

Jake: 43:34

Yeah, yeah.

Frank: 43:35

How could I screw that up? Those are such important sacrificial things.

Jake: 43:41

There is actually such a thing as a cord-cutting ceremony. It's something that certain groups talk about.

Noah: 43:49

It's what people do when they get rid of cable.

Jake: 43:52

Yeah. Oh cord cutters my home phone, my landline.

Frank: 43:59

Yeah, I thought it's what you did when you got rid of a baby as a woman.

Jake: 44:02

Oh yeah, you can do that.

Noah: 44:06

Got rid of a baby, that's what we call birth Getting rid of a baby. Yeah.

Jake: 44:11

The umbilical cord cutting.

Noah: 44:12

Right yeah.

Jake: 44:13

Yeah, so what if you've done that?

Noah: 44:17

Congrats on getting rid of that baby.

Jake: 44:27

Exactly, yeah, yeah. So what have you done that congrats on getting rid of that baby. I just mean physically rid of.

Frank: 44:30

Yeah, it's no longer in them it's not in them, it's on them. But what's your question? You've done the cord cutting. Yeah, I think the question is like um, you do the cord cutting and and you have your whole ceremonial sort of I'm going to write this story out and burn it or whatever, and then it's not me anymore, and then you get smacked back into it. What do you do about that? Write it again, burn it again.

Jake: 44:55

I don't think it's doing that. I think it's reaffirming that it's been cut. I am no longer the person who resorts back to that. Um, it's not part of this new identity. Sure you can go back to it, and if you do and you keep doing it for long enough, then you're going to have to cut it again. But I mean in that moment, like the first time it happens, yeah, you might rush to your old friend John and be like. John always gave me hugs whenever I had a hard time like this. But when you realize you're about to do that, you go. Yeah, but John keeps getting me kicked out of places. This is not good. I'm not going to go back to John, I will find a different type of hug.

Frank: 45:41

Yeah, there are a lot of Johns out there.

Jake: 45:43

Yeah, so many Johns. So that's my take on it. Did you hear about the Kyles, though? The Kyles?

Frank: 45:53

Yeah, there was a Kyle event in Kyle Texas. Really, tell me more. They tried to break the world record for the number of people with the same name in the same place at the same time in Kyle Texas with Kyle's.

Jake: 46:10

Oh.

Frank: 46:11

Did they do it? No, it was the second year. Last year they had 1,400 Kyle's. This year they only had like 706 Kyles, but they need to have like 2 or 3 thousand Kyles.

Jake: 46:24

Get it together.

Frank: 46:25

Kyles? Which name holds the record? Ivan?

Jake: 46:31

Oh well, actually that does make sense. This tracks If you think about the communities that name their kids Ivan, they all are named Ivan, ivan or Yvonne.

Noah: 46:42

Ivan Does it matter.

Frank: 46:45

Yvonne Like.

Jake: 46:47

E-V-O-N. No, it's just a pronunciation Are they French.

Noah: 46:52

We went to a baseball game yesterday and I saw a fact on the scoreboard that there have only been 68 Panamanian baseball players and that Miguel Amaya, the catcher for the Cubs, was one of them. But then later I found out that the catcher for the Cardinals is also Panamanian no Two of 68, both catchers in that game. Crazy Pandamanium.

Jake: 47:26

Anyway, the catcher for the Cardinals. His name is Zivon. I mean, that's crazy though it's pandemonium.

Frank: 47:35

It's pandemonium Pandemonium. I think, I think so this has been your Panamanian fact. Should we close this in some way?

Jake: 47:43

Yeah, we should. I think that the unexamined life is one that leads to identification with thoughts that are probably not serving you, and and so I think it is worthwhile to look at these things, to find out who your Johns are. Try to get kicked out of fewer restaurants, because, uh, I think you're gonna live a more fulfilled and, uh, satisfying life if you do that is the longest and most complex way to say the unexamined life is not worth living.

Frank: 48:35

Good, really, you inversed it. You added so many words.

Jake: 48:40

Mm-hmm.

Frank: 48:42

But the meaning was mostly the same.

Jake: 48:44

Yeah, mm-hmm, this is what it is to be, jake.

Frank: 48:50

Yeah, noah, you haven't said a whole lot about this, yeah.

Noah: 48:53

For me, this falls into that category of interesting but unhelpful conversation. I just don't think it's I do. There's one thing I disagree on, which is just probably definitional. You keep talking about thoughts and I actually think those things that you're talking about as problematic thoughts are not thoughts. I think that's programming, I think it's coded. I think it's coded and I think making them thoughts again is how you become present.

Frank: 49:22

Oh sure, I'm fine with that.

Noah: 49:24

Yeah, that's all I have to say.

Jake: 49:28

That's an interesting point though.

Noah: 49:30

Yeah, is that that Frank's been wrong? This whole conversation.

Jake: 49:33

Yeah, when they become thoughts, they become separate from you. I like that point, yeah.

Frank: 49:38

Personally fan of it I'm kidding, it was a joke, I took it seriously and I hope that you take this and learn from it yeah, yeah, I'm for it.

Noah: 49:52

Actually, the thought is an object right.

Noah: 49:56

That's what I've been thinking about this whole time is the reason that I think the conversation, at least on the extreme, is unhelpful is because it's nice to think yeah, I mean, if we all just didn't, you know, let those thoughts run us, then the world would be perfect. I mean, I just don't think that's helpful. I know that's not exactly what you said, but the idea is, if everybody just didn't have thoughts, or if everybody didn't let their thoughts run them, then everything would be great. But it's not realistic.

Frank: 50:30

Yeah, I think it maybe isn't realistic to do it that way, but I think it is somewhat realistic on personal revolution scale.

Noah: 50:40

Sure for sure, yeah, but then, like I said, I don't think. I think making them thoughts again is how you become present and how you're able to choose, but if you let them become coded, they're not thoughts. That's the problem.

Frank: 50:57

Exactly yeah, and the more you let them run, the more they become encoded and the less likely you'll notice them as as something you could think about.

Noah: 51:09

Yeah, so I don't know. That's all I have to say. I think on the whole, no, it's helpful.

Frank: 51:17

It's better than anything we said I think. Do you have any other things like that you want to say first, before we end the podcast?

Noah: 51:26

If I come up with any, I'll just splice them in.

Frank: 51:29

Oh, are you editing this one?

Noah: 51:30

No, there won't be anymore.

Jake: 51:36

Thanks everybody.

Frank: 51:41

Jake, you can do better than that. Thanks, everybody. Do it with the giggity thing well, thanks everybody thanks for listening.